LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

ToBeLoved

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It's Christian History 101, TBL.

Not only did Christianity spread through the sword, it maintained through the sword.

Once Constantine declared that Christianity was the official state religion, it became illegal to believe otherwise. From then on through the Dark Ages, if you were not a professing "Christian" (with "Christian" being defined by the ruling monarch) you were executed on the spot. Entire villages were wiped out because of this mentality, which is where we got the phrase "Kill them all, and let God sort them out" from; a government official couldn't tell who were the "Good Christians" in a village and who were the "heretics", so he ordered the entire population executed in the belief that God would take care of the sorting.

Nor was this limited to Europe and the Mediterranean. As the European powers moved elsewhere in the world, they brought Christianity with them... and executed all who refused to join. Some Spanish conquistadors were so thorough in trying to eradicate any competing religion that they went so far as to destroy records and monuments that they thought "heretical", thus robbing the world of centuries of learning.

It was actually a huge freaking deal that the United States put in place a Constitutional right to freedom of religion, as quite simply such freedom was virtually unheard of at the time. Even as late as the 1800s, many nations still defined "good citizenship" as "membership in the 'correct' 'Christian' faith". In fact, this is part of what spurred the Texas Revolution: Mexico tried to force Catholicism on all of the settlers who came to Texas back when it was still a Mexican territory.

How is it that you did not know this? Just about every American history and European history textbook I've had was honest about this, and I live in Texas, a place where one would think this kind of information would be suppressed as heavily as the government's mistreatment of the LDS faith.
Well if that's true you'll have a lot of citations that won't be hard to find. So you do that or stop with your debasing of Christianity.

Why don't you guys quit just posting opinions and get with the program of supporting what you say with real data, history and reliable sources. It's getting quite irritating.
 
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Ironhold

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I don't think so. The Christian church was growing from the beginning. Some left but more became new Christians.

What citations do you have for this? I'll wait.

I asked you a question to get you to think.

Your response is nothing more than a dodge so you don't have to do so.
 
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Ironhold

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Well if that's true you'll have a lot of citations that won't be hard to find. So you do that or stop with your debasing of Christianity.

You make it sound like you've never had a secular history class in your life.

Given this, I think we'll take this one item at a time.

"Kill Them All; God Knows His Own"

http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/2008/august/kill-them-all.html
http://www.thisdayinquotes.com/2011/07/kill-them-all-and-let-god-sort-them-out.html
http://www.executedtoday.com/2009/07/22/1209-albigensian-crusade-cathars-beziers/

In the early 1200s, the Roman Catholic Church declared a crusade against the Cathars, a Christian group that they had deemed "heretical". In 1209, a group of these Crusaders descended upon the French town of Beziers, where the local Catholics and Cathars had lived together in harmony for several years. The Crusaders demanded that the town turn over the local Cathars, but the town refused. In response, the Crusaders attacked the town, slaughtering approximately 20,000 people.

It is estimated that there were only a few hundred Cathars in the town at most, meaning that much of the carnage represented Catholics killing Catholics.

Nowadays such an action would be regarded as a war crime, but back then it was all kosher since the slaughter took place in God's name and the Cathars were nasty little "heretics".
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Correction: I don't think you're still a practicing Mormon, I just think you can't leave it behind you. Like someone who break's up with an ex and then can't quit obsessing about them. It's not moving on.
I agree with the bolded statement - it's like breaking up with an ex who is an abusive, controlling polygamist and a severe liar. A rational person like Phoebe Ann would do whatever she can to warn others and try to talk sense into those currently being abused and lied to. Interesting that you picked up on that, too.

It's like the people on this TV documentary show:
http://www.aetv.com/shows/escaping-polygamy

They are stuck in polygamous mormon denominations that live the same way as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did. A lot of the brainwashing, mind control, abuse, etc. are the common fruits across all of mormonism, both polygamous and non-polygamous.

What better person than someone like Phoebe Ann who has lived and experienced mormonism to expose those parts of mormonism that go directly against God? She is (and ex-mormons like her are) the best witness to bear her testimony about what she KNOWS to be false in mormonism because she now has the light of God through the Holy Spirit guiding her to the Truth. That light shines on mormonism and exposes all the sin that is in it.

I think this is why you are so bothered by Phoebe Ann that you just make attack after attack upon her with accusations that you can't back up. But you are right that she has an abusive ex which is mormonism and like any abused person it's hard to let that go when you see other people being lied to and abused by that abuser.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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It's Christian History 101, TBL.
Sounds like Christian History 101, BYU...

Not only did Christianity spread through the sword, it maintained through the sword.

Once Constantine declared that Christianity was the official state religion, it became illegal to believe otherwise.
Wow - where is this story from? History shows that Constantine issued the Edict of Milan which gave Christians freedom to practice their religion alongside the existing pagan ones. History shows also that Constantine was content to honor the pagan religions and traditions of the time alongside Christianity. Where is the part where he made it "illegal to believe otherwise"???

From then on through the Dark Ages, if you were not a professing "Christian" (with "Christian" being defined by the ruling monarch) you were executed on the spot. Entire villages were wiped out because of this mentality, which is where we got the phrase "Kill them all, and let God sort them out" from; a government official couldn't tell who were the "Good Christians" in a village and who were the "heretics", so he ordered the entire population executed in the belief that God would take care of the sorting.

Nor was this limited to Europe and the Mediterranean. As the European powers moved elsewhere in the world, they brought Christianity with them... and executed all who refused to join. Some Spanish conquistadors were so thorough in trying to eradicate any competing religion that they went so far as to destroy records and monuments that they thought "heretical", thus robbing the world of centuries of learning.
While I'm well aware that there were cases of killing in the name of Christianity or Catholicism it is neither how Christianity was spread and it was not something that happened throughout all of Europe and the Middle East, as you are claiming. My own nation of Armenia - the First and Oldest Christian Nation - was not converted by the sword. In fact, our history is the opposite where we have been martyred for Christianity by refusing to convert to paganism when imposed upon to do so by foreign invaders.

But that doesn't fit the anti-Christian narrative you present...

It was actually a huge freaking deal that the United States put in place a Constitutional right to freedom of religion, as quite simply such freedom was virtually unheard of at the time. Even as late as the 1800s, many nations still defined "good citizenship" as "membership in the 'correct' 'Christian' faith". In fact, this is part of what spurred the Texas Revolution: Mexico tried to force Catholicism on all of the settlers who came to Texas back when it was still a Mexican territory.
So such a freedom was unheard of at the time except that Constantine actually had issued the Edict of Milan about 1500 years earlier?

How is it that you did not know this? Just about every American history and European history textbook I've had was honest about this, and I live in Texas, a place where one would think this kind of information would be suppressed as heavily as the government's mistreatment of the LDS faith.
How is it that you don't know about Constantine or the Edict of Milan? Where do you get the stories that you presented here about Constantine? Is that the Texas educational system? (Wouldn't surprise me coming from Bush's state.) Maybe Texas is suppressing history regarding Constantine?
 
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fatboys

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Sounds like Christian History 101, BYU...


Wow - where is this story from? History shows that Constantine issued the Edict of Milan which gave Christians freedom to practice their religion alongside the existing pagan ones. History shows also that Constantine was content to honor the pagan religions and traditions of the time alongside Christianity. Where is the part where he made it "illegal to believe otherwise"???


While I'm well aware that there were cases of killing in the name of Christianity or Catholicism it is neither how Christianity was spread and it was not something that happened throughout all of Europe and the Middle East, as you are claiming. My own nation of Armenia - the First and Oldest Christian Nation - was not converted by the sword. In fact, our history is the opposite where we have been martyred for Christianity by refusing to convert to paganism when imposed upon to do so by foreign invaders.

But that doesn't fit the anti-Christian narrative you present...


So such a freedom was unheard of at the time except that Constantine actually had issued the Edict of Milan about 1500 years earlier?


How is it that you don't know about Constantine or the Edict of Milan? Where do you get the stories that you presented here about Constantine? Is that the Texas educational system? (Wouldn't surprise me coming from Bush's state.) Maybe Texas is suppressing history regarding Constantine?
So you are saying that we have the history wrong? Please enlighten us
 
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ToBeLoved

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I asked you a question to get you to think.

Your response is nothing more than a dodge so you don't have to do so.
You present opinions nothing more. Put a little meat behind your opinion. I've been asking forever. So sorry, I'm not going to do your research for you. You figure out how to support your postings and then we can talk.
 
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ToBeLoved

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You make it sound like you've never had a secular history class in your life.

Given this, I think we'll take this one item at a time.

"Kill Them All; God Knows His Own"

http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/2008/august/kill-them-all.html
http://www.thisdayinquotes.com/2011/07/kill-them-all-and-let-god-sort-them-out.html
http://www.executedtoday.com/2009/07/22/1209-albigensian-crusade-cathars-beziers/

In the early 1200s, the Roman Catholic Church declared a crusade against the Cathars, a Christian group that they had deemed "heretical". In 1209, a group of these Crusaders descended upon the French town of Beziers, where the local Catholics and Cathars had lived together in harmony for several years. The Crusaders demanded that the town turn over the local Cathars, but the town refused. In response, the Crusaders attacked the town, slaughtering approximately 20,000 people.

It is estimated that there were only a few hundred Cathars in the town at most, meaning that much of the carnage represented Catholics killing Catholics.

Nowadays such an action would be regarded as a war crime, but back then it was all kosher since the slaughter took place in God's name and the Cathars were nasty little "heretics".
And what does that have to do with my faith in Jesus Christ? Maybe you haven't been hearing, our relationship is with God.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I don't think so. The Christian church was growing from the beginning. Some left but more became new Christians.

What citations do you have for this? I'll wait.
I'm still waiting for your answer.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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So you are saying that we have the history wrong? Please enlighten us
I think I was pretty clear - I said Ironhold had it wrong and I provided the correct history re the Edict of Milan.
 
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BigDaddy4

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So does your Bible not include Acts 8:14-17 or Acts 19:5-6?

If it does (which is what I'm assuming), how do you reconcile these verses with your beliefs?
Does yours have Acts 10:44-48? How do you reconcile that with your beliefs?
 
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BigDaddy4

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It is not the man giving it, but God. The priest is merely a messenger. This is the Biblical way.
The lds priesthood is a farce. No such thing. Christ is our High Priest. HIM and ONLY HIM! Therefore, the rest of your post is a lie.
 
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ToBeLoved

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It is not the man giving it, but God. The priest is merely a messenger. This is the Biblical way.
Right Jane. With the indwelling Holy Spirit one knows who their High Priest is. Not the same as your priesthood.

Find Jesus Christ.
 
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tickingclocker

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They have contradictory teachings and if a Mormon knows one that contradicts what you've said, they'll tell you that you misrepresented them.

Here is what the Doctrine and Covenants claims:

Doctrine and Covenants 76

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—


35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—


37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

Brigham Young said, " . . . and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 312).

" . . . no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

“Those who are unfaithful, those who will listen to Satan, who will lend a willing ear to his blandishments and to his allurements, when they go from this state of existence, they go into a condition where they are subject to his power. They will dwell in darkness, and according to their sins their punishment will be. Some will be consigned to ‘outer darkness,’ where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; and they will remain in that condition until they will be visited by some servant of God to unlock the prison doors to them and to preach to them again the Gospel of salvation, through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ…They will remain in that condition, according to the enormity of their offenses, until punishment will be meted out to them sufficiently to bring them to a condition that they will receive the Gospel of salvation. That Gospel which is taught to us will be taught to them, and they will have an opportunity of obeying it in their damned condition and through repentance will receive salvation.”
Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth 1:78-79

“When the wicked depart this life, they are ‘cast out into outer darkness,’ into hell, where ‘they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord,’ where they are spiritually dead. (Alma 40:13-14.) They remain spiritually dead in hell until the day of their resurrection (D. & C. 76:103-112), until ‘death and hell’ deliver up the dead which are in them, so that they may be judged according to their works.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 757


The great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 350

God bless you, tickingclocker, for your honesty and for standing up for Jesus and His truth in the face of opposition!
Don't I know it! No matter what mormonism "facts" we put down, even if directly cut and pasted from official Mormon websites there will always be the "that's not what we believe" crowd you can never satisfy. If we don't include every infinitesimal point, we inevitably "get something wrong". (But only if we are comparing it to Christianity. If accepting it? We're just fine. Isn't that always the way? I've found its true from experience.) Mormonism is tremendously over-complex as well as contradictory, with tentacles intertwined in all different doctrinal directions, so much so even Mormons themselves can have trouble grasping it. Then they pass that confusion on to others, making the situation even worse. Ask a crowd of Mormons a question, you get nine differing answers. One will always say "I'll have to get back to you on that." That's the one who must check with their apologists to find out what the updated official position is on it. (That's the one that's often the most accurate, btw. Doesn't always mean they "understand" the official updated position, but they are very good at repeating things verbatim!)

Its not really necessary to get into the finer details here to state what mormonism promotes. Besides, I'm not here to "learn the finer details of mormonism". The basics reveal quite plainly its based on lies.
 
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tickingclocker

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Will it do any good to explain this to you. Many many times this has been explained and it has fallen on deaf ears. Why waste our time.
The only one who can waste your time is you. It's "your" time. No one else's.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Don't I know it! No matter what mormonism "facts" we put down, even if directly cut and pasted from official Mormon websites there will always be the "that's not what we believe" crowd you can never satisfy. If we don't include every infinitesimal point, we inevitably "get something wrong". (But only if we are comparing it to Christianity. If accepting it? We're just fine. Isn't that always the way? I've found its true from experience.) Mormonism is tremendously over-complex as well as contradictory, with tentacles intertwined in all different doctrinal directions, so much so even Mormons themselves can have trouble grasping it. Then they pass that confusion on to others, making the situation even worse. Ask a crowd of Mormons a question, you get nine differing answers. One will always say "I'll have to get back to you on that." That's the one who must check with their apologists to find out what the updated official position is on it. (That's the one that's often the most accurate, btw. Doesn't always mean they "understand" the official updated position, but they are very good at repeating things verbatim!)

Its not really necessary to get into the finer details here to state what mormonism promotes. Besides, I'm not here to "learn the finer details of mormonism". The basics reveal quite plainly its based on lies.
Do you know that every Mormon who goes to their ward on Sunday is taught the exact same thing out of the exact same manual? Written by and produced by the LDS church?

No one can stray from that manual or teaching.

Age groups have age appropriate manuals, but the same thing, they all follow it.

This 'way' of learning I think helps to explain some of these things. This aint no thinkin' thing.
 
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tickingclocker

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Do you know that every Mormon who goes to their ward on Sunday is taught the exact same thing out of the exact same manual? Written by and produced by the LDS church?

No one can stray from that manual or teaching.

Age groups have age appropriate manuals, but the same thing, they all follow it.

This 'way' of learning I think helps to explain some of these things. This aint no thinkin' thing.
Yes, I've seen it. It's not just in the US either. All LDS Mormons study the exact same thing in every ward around the world each week. No teacher "should" stray from teaching the lesson for the date, but some occasionally do. Then there are those who loosely teach what is in the manual, but present their own opinionated spin on the contents. Not every Mormon absorbs what is being taught exactly alike either. That's why there is so many differences between Mormons and their knowledge of doctrines, and why so many apologist references are necessary.

Such a mechanical schedule doesn't allow any carrying the subject over to the next week in order to answer involved questions or responding to challenges either. They are discouraged. It's on to the next lesson for the Sunday, by rote.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes, I've seen it. It's not just in the US either. All LDS Mormons study the exact same thing in every ward around the world each week. No teacher "should" stray from teaching the lesson for the date, but some occasionally do. Then there are those who loosely teach what is in the manual, but present their own opinionated spin on the contents. Not every Mormon absorbs what is being taught exactly alike either. That's why there is so many differences between Mormons and their knowledge of doctrines, with so many apologist references being necessary.

Such a mechanical schedule doesn't allow any carrying the subject over to the next week in order to answer involved questions or responding to challenges either. They are discouraged. It's on to the next lesson for the Sunday, by rote.
And no one really learns how to apply anything to their life. But maybe that is the point, tell them
 
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Ironhold

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And what does that have to do with my faith in Jesus Christ? Maybe you haven't been hearing, our relationship is with God.

It has to do with the fact that you apparently do not know the history of the faith you profess, yet you have no qualms about tearing into mine.

Now, this incident represents a clear example of Christianity being spread and enforced by the sword.

Are you willing to admit to this?
 
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Ironhold

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I think I was pretty clear - I said Ironhold had it wrong and I provided the correct history re the Edict of Milan.

...Yet as the post I made concerning a certain massacre shows, mainline Christianity didn't exactly feel compelled to follow said edict.
 
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