Why did Jesus Leave?

[amariselle]

No, I said that the thread was started "to voice your complaints."

Yes, exactly, you said I started the thread to "voice my complaints." I am telling you that is not why I started the thread at all. Do you want to know why I actually started it? (Although if you read the entirety of the OP, as well as the thread title, the reason should be clear to you).

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, exactly, you said I started the thread to "voice my complaints." I am telling you that is not why I started the thread at all. Do you want to know why I actually started it? (Although if you read the entirety of the OP, as well as the thread title, the reason should be clear to you).

The OP has its own issues: you talk about moving past the bickering and toward "real and honest dialogue." Yet your conception of such dialogue seems to be that atheists should "come here because they have real questions and concerns, and they want to know more about the Christian faith." In other words, your entire conception of dialogue is based on outreach and "exploration of Christianity," in which the Christian takes on the role of teacher and the atheist is a dutiful pupil, who takes care not to interrupt her instructor. That's not my idea of real and honest dialogue, and that's not the way this particular forum operates.

 

[amariselle]

The OP has its own issues: you talk about moving past the bickering and toward "real and honest dialogue." Yet your conception of such dialogue seems to be that atheists should "come here because they have real questions and concerns, and they want to know more about the Christian faith." In other words, your entire conception of dialogue is based on outreach and "exploration of Christianity," in which the Christian takes on the role of teacher and the atheist is a dutiful pupil, who takes care not to interrupt her instructor. That's not my idea of real and honest dialogue, and that's not the way this particular forum operates.

That isn't what I was saying at all. But by all means, twist my words to fit your own interpretation. You've made up your mind that you know my true motives and intentions, I am telling you, you do not. But, you can believe what you like about that thread and why I started it, I can't stop you. How you choose to see it however, doesn't change why I actually started it.

Either way, this is off topic. I've tried to address your accusations and talk with you about them, but I can tell you're not interested in hearing what I have to say. So, it's time to move on and get back to the actual topic of this thread.

 

[Deidre32]

You did say "neither is right or wrong." I'm curious about what you mean by that. You went on to say that, if it brings joy to people, "live and let live."

Only a clarification of what you mean, since it's not clear.

I see...I meant that you're not wrong to follow your idea that a god doesn't exist, if you're convinced of that, and I'm not wrong to follow Christianity if I'm convinced of it. It's not like proving or disproving if 2+2=4.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I see...I meant that you're not wrong to follow your idea that a god doesn't exist, if you're convinced of that, and I'm not wrong to follow Christianity if I'm convinced of it. It's not like proving or disproving if 2+2=4.

But if our positions are incompatible, then how can neither of us be wrong? I'm not sure that follows.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That isn't what I was saying at all. But by all means, twist my words to fit your own interpretation. You've made up your mind that you know my true motives and intentions, I am telling you, you do not. But, you can believe what you like about that thread and why I started it, I can't stop you. How you choose to see it however, doesn't change why I actually started it.

Either way, this is off topic. I've tried to address your accusations and talk with you about them, but I can tell you're not interested in hearing what I have to say. So, it's time to move on and get back to the actual topic of this thread.

It's not what you're saying? I've quoted your own words from the OP. Are you interested in an honest dialogue, or are you interested in outreach and "exploration of Christianity"? You seem to assume that atheists should be here for the latter.

 

[Chriliman]

I see...I meant that you're not wrong to follow your idea that a god doesn't exist, if you're convinced of that, and I'm not wrong to follow Christianity if I'm convinced of it. It's not like proving or disproving if 2+2=4.

From God's perspective, he is wrong and we as Christians should acknowledge that. I don't think it's wise to ever say an atheist is right in their worldview that God does not exist because atheism does not even claim that God does not exist, so they can't actually be right.

I understand that you didn't actually say he's right, but you did say he's not wrong for thinking God does not exist, when in fact he is wrong for thinking that.

All the best! God bless you!

 

[amariselle]

It's not what you're saying? I've quoted your own words from the OP. Are you interested in an honest dialogue, or are you interested in outreach and "exploration of Christianity"? You seem to assume that atheists should be here for the latter.

I'm actually interested in both an honest dialogue AND in outreach.

What I "assume" Atheists shouldn't be here for is to attempt to de-convert Christians by mocking their faith and picking it apart.

But I started that thread with very specific purposes, and you've completely misunderstood them.

And this is the last I'll say on the topic, as this thread is not about disputing a particular thread I started elsewhere in the forum.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm actually interested in both an honest dialogue AND in outreach.

What I "assume" Atheists shouldn't be here for is to attempt to de-convert Christians by mocking their faith and picking it apart.

But I started that thread with very specific purposes, and you've completely misunderstood them.

And this is the last I'll say on the topic, as this thread is not about disputing a particular thread I started elsewhere in the forum.

Philosophers have spent centuries "picking it apart," to use your words. Again, you're on the Philosophy forum! So why is it some sort of surprise to you that this would occur here?

 

[amariselle]

Philosophers have spent centuries "picking it apart." Again, you're on the Philosophy forum! So why is it some sort of surprise to you that this would occur here?

Again, you are missing what I am saying. The problem isn't with "picking it apart" or with asking honest questions, the problem is with the intention of de-converting Christians by mocking their faith and God, and I have seen this repeatedly on the general sub-forums of this site. And since you seem to want to defend philosophy, such things are NOT true philosophy at all. Rather, such things are part of a specific agenda. When certain people have done this, they are not being honest at all, they are expressing their dishonest and convoluted ulterior motives.

I have a problem with people who are here with the sole or primary intent of attacking the Christian faith and ridiculing Christians, with the hope that they can perhaps make Christians see the apparent error of their ways.

 

[FireDragon76]

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Again, you are missing what I am saying. The problem isn't with "picking it apart" or with asking honest questions, the problem is with the intention of de-converting Christians by mocking their faith and God, and I have seen this repeatedly on the general sub-forums of this site. And since you seem to want to defend philosophy, such things are NOT true philosophy at all. Rather, such things are part of a specific agenda. When certain people have done this, they are not being honest at all, they are expressing their dishonest and convoluted ulterior motives.

I have a problem with people who are here with the sole or primary intent of attacking the Christian faith and ridiculing Christians, with the hope that they can perhaps make Christians see the apparent error of their ways.

But who is here with the specific intention of deconverting anyone? I'm here for conversation, and I suspect most other atheists are as well. The problem is that you cannot handle any conversation apart from one that takes the form of "outreach" and "exploring Christianity." But that's a one-sided conversation that nonbelievers typically have no interest in. We are not hear to be preached at, proselytised to, or prayed for.

What you perceive as "attacking the Christian faith" is not at all unusual on a Philosophy forum. As an example, you were shocked that someone would say that Jesus is "nothing special" in terms of claiming to be a messiah. Instead of advancing an argument for why Jesus was indeed special, which is what would expected on a Philosophy forum, your only rebuttal was "that's just your opinion, man." As an another example, you considered the erosion of faith to be a terrible thing, but you couldn't give reasons for this, meaning that we had nothing to discuss on that matter. I've often said that faith is not a virtue, which I suppose you might perceive as another "attack on the Christian faith." But you've shown no interest in actually discussing this or at least outlining why you think differently.

Nothing that's been said is in any way unusual for this forum, and yet instead of addressing it with arguments of your own, you've spent most of the time complaining about what you perceive to be an attack on your religion. In other words, you've given more thought into being offended than you have to any argument that you've made.

 

[amariselle]

But who is here with the specific intention of deconverting anyone? I'm here for conversation, and I suspect most other atheists are as well. The problem is that you cannot handle any conversation apart from one that takes the form of "outreach" and "exploring Christianity." But that's a one-sided conversation that nonbelievers typically have no interest in. We are not hear to be preached at, proselytised to, or prayed for.

Indeed, it would seem you have absolutely no interest in the Christian faith as it really stands. But, I wasn't referring to you in particular, did you see your name mentioned in even a single one of my posts on that thread you are taking issue with?

And it's unfortunate that you consider Christians sharing their faith and addressing questions regarding their faith as "proselytizing." This is a Christian forum in its entirety, so you can expect to encounter such things here. If you do not wish to, there are plenty of secular forums on the Internet. I for one will make no apologies for sharing my faith and the hope I have in Jesus Christ, and I will continue to address and answer (to the best of my ability) HONEST questions about my faith.

Also, it's odd that you don't think that some non-Christians here are not actually asking honest questions. There are people here that are in no way interested in hearing about Christianity, instead they are interested only in mocking it, and Christians themselves.

What you perceive as "attacking the Christian faith" is not at all unusual on a Philosophy forum. As an example, you were shocked that someone would say that Jesus is "nothing special" in terms of claiming to be a messiah. Instead of advancing an argument for why Jesus was indeed special, which is what would expected on a Philosophy forum, your only rebuttal was "that's just your opinion, man."

Once again, I am not "shocked", though it appears you would really like me to be.

As an another example, you considered the erosion of faith to be a terrible thing, but you couldn't give reasons for this, meaning that we had nothing to discuss on that matter. I've often said that faith is not a virtue, which I suppose you might perceive as another "attack on the Christian faith." But you've shown no interest in actually discussing this or at least outlining why you think differently.

I have no interest in discussing it, because you already know the answer. I'm not interested in answering rhetorical questions or playing games.

Nothing that's been said is in any way unusual for this forum, and yet instead of addressing it with arguments of your own, you've spent most of the time complaining about what you perceive to be an attack on your religion. In other words, you've given more thought into being offended than you have to any argument that you've made.

Once again, I am not offended. Do you honestly think I'm upset over anything you've said? Am I concerned? Yes, but offended, no.

And I am not shocked either. You have not said even one single thing that shocks me.

Life is far too precious and beautiful, and the hope I have in Jesus far too important for me to waste time being offended or shocked at the very things Jesus warned about.

No, my trust is is Him, and it has not been shaken by anything you or anyone else has said. I hope and pray the same for every Christian here, and I hope and pray that those who are truly seeking will find Him.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Indeed, it would seem you have absolutely no interest in the Christian faith as it really stands. But, I wasn't referring to you in particular, did you see your name mentioned in even a single one of my posts on that thread you are taking issue with?

And it's unfortunate that you consider Christians sharing their faith and addressing questions regarding their faith as "proselytizing." This is a Christian forum in its entirety, so you can expect to encounter such things here. If you do not wish to, there are plenty of secular forums on the Internet. I for one will make no apologies for sharing my faith and the hope I have in Jesus Christ, and I will continue to address and answer (to the best of my ability) HONEST questions about my faith.

What indicates that any of the questions you've been asked are less than honest?

Also, it's odd that you don't think that some non-Christians here are not actually asking honest questions. There are people here that are in no way interested in hearing about Christianity, instead they are interested only in mocking it, and Christians themselves.

We've already heard about it! You act as though Christianity is something we've never encountered. I'd wager that there are many atheists on here who know the Bible better than half the Christians on this site.

Once again, you are incapable of engaging in any conversation that doesn't involve outreach, which is an inherently one-sided conversation that we have no interest in.

And it's unfortunate that you consider Christians sharing their faith and addressing questions regarding their faith as "proselytizing."

It's unfortunate that you see the comments on here as "attacking Christianity." We might as well get rid of the Philosophy forum altogether then...

Once again, I am not "shocked", though it appears you would really like me to be.

Of course you are. You can read the shock all over your posts.

I have no interest in discussing it, because you already know the answer. I'm not interested in answering rhetorical questions or playing games.

Then don't bother saying "it's terrible." It's not.

 

[amariselle]

What indicates that any of the questions you've been asked are less than honest?

We've already heard about it! You act as though Christianity is something we've never encountered. I'd wager that there are many atheists on here who know the Bible better than half the Christians on this site.

Once again, you are incapable of engaging in any conversation that doesn't involve outreach, which is an inherently one-sided conversation that we have no interest in.

Then why are you here? If you don't want to hear from Christians, you are in the wrong place.

It's unfortunate that you see the comments on here as "attacking Christianity." We might as well get rid of the Philosophy forum altogether then...

What's unfortunate is that not everyone is here for honest reasons.

Of course you are. You can read the shock all over your posts.

You mean you can read shock INTO my posts. Fine, do so if you wish. I repeat, I am not shocked by anything said here.

Then don't bother saying "it's terrible." It's not.

I said I find it terrible. Just because you don't, doesn't mean I shouldn't.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Then why are you here? If you don't want to hear from Christians, you are in the wrong place.

Where did I say that I didn't want to "hear from Christians"? For someone who is so concerned about words being twisted, you sure do a lot of that yourself.

What's unfortunate is that not everyone is here for honest reasons.

Oh really? How do you know that? Your criterion for "honest" seems to be "accepts my answers as definitive and doesn't question them."

You mean you can read shock INTO my posts. Fine, do so if you wish. I repeat, I am not shocked by anything said here.

Are you kidding? You were appalled that someone would say that Jesus was "nothing special," on a Christian forum no less! It was shocking to you.

I said I find it terrible. Just because you don't, doesn't mean I shouldn't.

Why should you? You didn't bother to answer that.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

OK, I get it, Jesus was a magical fictional character who could fly...

 

[FireDragon76]

OK, I get it, Jesus was a magical fictional character who could fly...

You missed the point entirely. Jesus ascended so that we could go on being human beings, so that we could become like him by faith. If he hung around, there would be little reason to do so. His work on Earth was done and finished, and he handed it off to his discpiles to whom he would give the Holy Spirit.

 

[devolved]

What's unfortunate is that not everyone is here for honest reasons.

I think your complaint is noted, but please understand that I'm not beginning this thread to deconvert anyone.

My set of beliefs are not better described as unbelief in God, but rather as a pending non-decision until I have some evidence or answers that I find satisfactory or plausible. That's generally the basis for any of our decisions about certain beliefs.

Likewise, I think it should be noted that I once was a believer for no other reason than a typical process that a believer goes through. For me it was educational experience at a young age, which I've progressed to college and seminary experience, and I've actually was preparing my life for some religious position in one way or another.

But, the higher my education on the subject matter got, the more it became obvious that there's a great deal of misrepresentation and obscurantism when it comes to explaining certain basics of Christian belief and what these actually translate in the real life.

Hence, the questions that I've had for a while never really been answered in a manner that would seem plausible.

For example, I keep asking people to share with me the stories about how Holy Spirit works exactly in their lives and how they know it's the Holy Spirit... and what I get is:

1) I get a verse pop in my head that helps me to guide through a situation.
2) I have a situation that goes my way after I pray
3) I get a feeling, or I've experienced some health recovery

Essentially, it doesn't really seem like anything other than projection of a belief system on a reality that's otherwise not much different form regular physical reality of non-belief.

In short, it seems to be rather an interpretation of events, rather than the reality of the events. Even in context of this forum, the reasons as to why Jesus left seem to be excuses rather than something worth considering.

To sum up:

1) People say that if he didn't leave then we wouldn't have faith:

I keep asking as to why faith is better than the real thing, and the answers seem to be to the likes of "we need to have faith in everything". But that's simply false. Faith is not a reliable means of making important decisions. We make decisions based on understanding of consequences, and such is a framework of our knowledge and not faith.

2) People give typical reasons given by Biblical writers

But none of these actually answer the question as to why any of these are better than the presence of Jesus on Earth... or at least visiting it in some visible manner to check back on people and offer some direction. Again, I don't see a 2000 year old account of what happened is viable enough to guide complexities of modern life. Biblical writers would think that a radio was a demon possessed box. Translating their cultural and scientific understanding to our day is obscene.

Hence, IT SEEMS LIKE, people write narrative and then write in excuses as to why Jesus is missing from reality, and then projecting interpretations that ascribe positive developments to some workings of Jesus or Holy Spirit without any viable means to show as to how these are any different from regular occurrences of these events, or giving any viable reason as to how they can even tell it was Jesus or Holy Spirit responsible.

The bottom line isn't that there are attempts to answer these questions, but that the answers given are not grounded in any viable reality beyond projecting one's own belief.

My suggestion is to start with non-belief and evaluate any given event described from that perspective. That's the honest way of doing it, and I think that charge of dishonesty shouldn't be pointed in my direction in this case.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... the problem is with the intention of de-converting Christians by mocking their faith and God, and I have seen this repeatedly on the general sub-forums of this site.

I suspect you're misinterpreting motives; I think the majority of atheists on these forums are well aware that mockery and ridicule are not effective ways to change someone's beliefs, but generally have the opposite effect.