Belief, faith, doubt

[HitchSlap]

Faith is rewarded when you put your faith in the actual truth. Of course you don't know it's the actual truth before you put your faith in it, but that's the point of faith, it leads to knowledge of truth.

Maybe you're not able to tell what's true or false without faith, but lucky for me, my world view allows me to independently evalute claims to decide what's true or false.

 

[HitchSlap]

If God has your heart, you'll know it. Doesn't really matter if you call it Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth, after all it was called Holy Ghost for the longest time. All that matters is than you can clearly feel God transforming the way you view the world and it becomes more clear as you seek him over time.

How do you distinguish a spirit from heartburn?

 

[TreasureHunter12]

The Father and Jesus have the exact same will, in essence they both send the Holy Spirit to purify those that believe in Jesus,

You are saying that we believe in Jesus and then we receive the Holy Spirit.

Here is what Paul says,
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. (I Corinthians 12:3)

Holy Spirit first. Know Jesus second.

Here is the problem that I alluded to in the OP: When a belief system is prioritized the way Christianity does, and you say that faith and guidance (Holy Spirit) exist within the boundaries of those beliefs, then you are ensuring that the belief system is maintained. Jesus prioritized faith and the Holy Spirit. He said be guided toward truth from within.

What happens if faith can only be exercised to detach from our current belief system and the Holy Spirit only leads us away from our beliefs, as I claim in the OP? Then that means that Christianity is teaching something opposite to what Jesus taught. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Chriliman]

You are saying that we believe in Jesus and then we receive the Holy Spirit.

Here is what Paul says,
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. (I Corinthians 12:3)

Holy Spirit first. Know Jesus second.

Here is the problem that I alluded to in the OP: When a belief system is prioritized the way Christianity does, and you say that faith and guidance (Holy Spirit) exist within the boundaries of those beliefs, then you are ensuring that the belief system is maintained. Jesus prioritized faith and the Holy Spirit. He said be guided toward truth from within.

What happens if faith can only be exercised to detach from our current belief system and the Holy Spirit only leads us away from our beliefs, as I claim in the OP? Then that means that Christianity is teaching something opposite to what Jesus taught. At least, that's how I see it.

It is true that anyone who comes to believe that Jesus died for them and took away their sins and was resurrected, believes this because the love of God the Father is drawing them in. God gives faith through Jesus Christ and faith leads to knowledge. This is the Holy Spirit at work which can clearly be seen in reality. The Holy Spirit will always lead us away from false beliefs and to what's actually true.

Earlier I said God gives faith and a gift can either be accepted and utilized or rejected and forgotten. This is why we must always seek God in faith and he will reward us for doing what pleases him, which is simply to love him and love others as ourselves.

If you're trying to decide between what Jesus is teaching and what you percieve 'Christianity' is teaching, always go with what Jesus is teaching

 

[ToddNotTodd]

God gives faith through Jesus Christ and faith leads to knowledge.

Faith (if you're equating that with belief) alone can't lead to knowledge. Knowledge need justification, which is seperate from belief.

 

[Chriliman]

Faith (if you're equating that with belief) alone can't lead to knowledge. Knowledge need justification, which is seperate from belief.

Right, which is where the personal experience of being saved would come in to justify the belief/faith that Jesus can save you.

Q: Save you from what?

A: Your sins and the eternal punishment of death/separation from God and life. (This does not imply that you'll be tormented forever)

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Right, ...

Ok, then we agree that faith by itself doesn't lead to knowledge. Good.

 

[Chriliman]

Ok, then we agree that faith by itself doesn't lead to knowledge. Good.

The point is that we all can put faith in what we think is true, but it's experience that justifies our faith.

 

[HitchSlap]

The point is that we all can put faith in what we think is true, but it's experience that justifies our faith.

Why does one need to put faith into anything?

 

[Chriliman]

Why does one need to put faith into anything?

Because we don't know everything there is to know, so many of us choose to engage the unknown in order to figure out what's actually true. Faith or trust that there's truth to be known is required to engage the unknown, otherwise you won't engage it because you're afraid of what you don't know or you're afraid of what truth you'll discover.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Because we don't know everything there is to know, so many of us choose to engage the unknown in order to figure out what's actually true. Faith or trust that there's truth to be known is required to engage the unknown, otherwise you won't engage it because you're afraid of what you don't know or you're afraid of what truth you'll discover.

What does "engage the unknown" mean to you?

 

[HitchSlap]

Because we don't know everything there is to know,

Ok. So what?

so many of us choose to engage the unknown

Clarification needed.

in order to figure out what's actually true.

Right, it's called the scientific method. It's been used for hundreds of years, now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Faith or trust that there's truth to be known is required to engage the unknown,

Religious faith and reasonable trust based on evidence are not the same thing. It only confuses people when you conflate these terms.
Are you intentionally trying to obfuscate the conversation?

otherwise you won't engage it because you're afraid of what you don't know or you're afraid of what truth you'll discover.

Actually, as an unbeliever, I've made the decision to accept things as they are, no faith or wish thinking necessary.
IMO, it's you, who are afraid of the truth. Have you ever asked yourself why?

 

[Chriliman]

What does "engage the unknown" mean to you?

It means, be curious. You seem like a curious person and that's good, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Chriliman]

Actually, as an unbeliever, I've made the decision to accept things as they are, no faith or wish thinking necessary.

If you accept things the way they are, does that mean you're not curious about anything? If you are curious about things, doesn't that mean you have an interest in searching out new things that were previously unknown to you?

IMO, it's you, who are afraid of the truth. Have you ever asked yourself why?

Naturally, truth is kind of scary because we must accept it one way or another. However, if you don't know the truth then you can live in ignorance for however long you want, until you die.

 

[HitchSlap]

If you accept things the way they are, does that mean you're not curious about anything?

Please demonstrate how accepting things as they are precludes curiosity?

Are you aware of this strawman, or are you trolling?

If you are curious about things,

I am inspired by the mystery of it all. More-so now as an atheist, than as a theist.

doesn't that mean you have an interest in searching out new things that were previously unknown to you?

Of course, and also the courage to accept whatever the best explanation is.

Naturally, truth is kind of scary because we must accept it one way or another.

I think "scary" is a subjective response. Truth is, what it is.

However, if you don't know the truth

Fortunately for me, my worldview allows me to assess truth in the most accurate manner.

then you can live in ignorance for however long you want, until you die.

Which is what you're choosing to do to.

 

[Chriliman]

I am inspired by the mystery of it all.

That's great

More-so now as an atheist, than as a theist.

You realize that atheism isn't a truth claim and therefore can't possibly lead you to anything significant in terms of truth, right?

Of course, and also the courage to accept whatever the best explanation is.

Right, whatever explanation, except God.

I think "scary" is a subjective response. Truth is, what it is.

Right, it is what it is, no matter what we want it to be.

Fortunately for me, my worldview allows me to assess truth in the most accurate manner.

Great, as long as you remember that your worldview(atheism) is not a truth claim, therefore the truth will not come from your worldview(atheism).

I'm not implying that the truth will come from my worldview either, I am implying that the truth will come from an intelligent being. How intelligent? That is the question.

Which is what you're choosing to do to.

Nope, just pointing out the facts because they're important to consider when searching for truth.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

I'll step back on my soapbox to again say that faith shouldn't be used in place of hope, belief, or trust. Faith is not synonymous with and is, in fact, mostly counter to those actions.

Faith is a conscious action against, or in opposition to, our unconscious attachments. Everyone, at an unconscious level, puts hope in their current worldview. We believe in and trust in it because we are attached to it. None of this is by conscious choice.

When we feel despair and we get put on the outside of and question our current worldview, or religion, this happens because pain causes our unconscious emotional attachments to temporarily release. Do you ever find yourself asking if there is more to life (questioning your worldview) when you are in despair? This is that process at work.

If we do nothing, then those unconscious attachments of hope and trust will reattach themselves to our current belief system as the pain and despair dissipates. Our current worldview is not truth; we only think it is because we are emotionally manipulated by our unconscious to preserve our hope by believing it is. This emotional manipulation misguides the religious person into thinking it is some kind of divine confirmation, or God, or the Holy Spirit.

So if everyone is manipulated by their unconscious into thinking that their current worldview is the true one, how can anyone ever progress beyond this trap? If we tune into life, then during those times of pain when we temporarily detach from our belief system, we are given an opportunity to notice something that is guiding us toward the pain and into doubt and uncertainty. We have to consciously choose this whisper over the shouting of our unconscious trying to reattach us to the known, to the "truth". That is faith.

*steps off soapbox*

 

[HitchSlap]

That's great

I think so.

You realize that atheism isn't a truth claim

Please show where I said it was.

and therefore can't possibly lead you to anything significant in terms of truth, right?

Atheism allows me to be objective. As a theist, this is not so for you.

Right, whatever explanation, except God.

You should have said, "Right, whatever explanation, including god."

Right, it is what it is, no matter what we want it to be.

It's this way for me. You, OTOH, hold presuppositions which preclude you from accepting reality.

Great, as long as you remember that your worldview(atheism) is not a truth claim,

Never claimed it was. This is your straw man (or troll - I haven't decided which yet).
Atheism allows me to be objective. Unlike your worldview.

therefore the truth will not come from your worldview(atheism).

Something you're becoming an expert in; starting with a faulty premise, will get you a false conclusion. But, as I've demonstrated, your worldview doesn't allow you recognize when you're wrong. Which means your path to truth is faulty, and you'll never have the tools to recognize when you're right, and when you're not.

I'm not implying that the truth will come from my worldview either,

I've already demonstrated that the only way you'll ever arrive at a truth, is by accident, and then you won't be able to recognize it anyway.

I am implying that the truth will come from an intelligent being.

You have no idea where truth comes from, or even how to recognize it.

How intelligent?

Non sequitur.

That is the question.

You have no idea what the question is.

Nope, just pointing out the facts because they're important to consider when searching for truth.

Yes, in my worldview, facts are important. In yours, not so much.

 

[Chriliman]

I think so.

Please show where I said it was.

Atheism allows me to be objective. As a theist, this is not so for you.

You should have said, "Right, whatever explanation, including god."

It's this way for me. You, OTOH, hold presuppositions which preclude you from accepting reality.

Never claimed it was. This is your straw man (or troll - I haven't decided which yet).
Atheism allows me to be objective. Unlike your worldview.

Something you're becoming an expert in; starting with a faulty premise, will get you a false conclusion. But, as I've demonstrated, your worldview doesn't allow you recognize when you're wrong. Which means your path to truth is faulty, and you'll never have the tools to recognize when you're right, and when you're not.

I've already demonstrated that the only way you'll ever arrive at a truth, is by accident, and then you won't be able to recognize it anyway.

You have no idea where truth comes from, or even how to recognize it.

Non sequitur.

You have no idea what the question is.

Yes, in my worldview, facts are important. In yours, not so much.

It is a fact that truth must first be known by an intelligent being and then conveyed by that same being. It then follows that the greatest truth must first be known by the greatest being and then conveyed by that same being.

 

[HitchSlap]

It is a fact that truth must first be known by an intelligent being and then conveyed by that same being. It then follows that the greatest truth must first be known by the greatest being and then conveyed by that same being.

Citation needed.