LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Rescued One]

Does LDS mormonism teach that only "sons of perdition", i.e., those who reject belief that JS is "God's prophet" and therefore have "given themselves over to Satan" along with the few truly wicked go? Yes.

They have contradictory teachings and if a Mormon knows one that contradicts what you've said, they'll tell you that you misrepresented them.

Here is what the Doctrine and Covenants claims:

Doctrine and Covenants 76

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

Brigham Young said, " . . . and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 312).

" . . . no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

“Those who are unfaithful, those who will listen to Satan, who will lend a willing ear to his blandishments and to his allurements, when they go from this state of existence, they go into a condition where they are subject to his power. They will dwell in darkness, and according to their sins their punishment will be. Some will be consigned to ‘outer darkness,’ where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; and they will remain in that condition until they will be visited by some servant of God to unlock the prison doors to them and to preach to them again the Gospel of salvation, through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ…They will remain in that condition, according to the enormity of their offenses, until punishment will be meted out to them sufficiently to bring them to a condition that they will receive the Gospel of salvation. That Gospel which is taught to us will be taught to them, and they will have an opportunity of obeying it in their damned condition and through repentance will receive salvation.”
Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth 1:78-79

“When the wicked depart this life, they are ‘cast out into outer darkness,’ into hell, where ‘they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord,’ where they are spiritually dead. (Alma 40:13-14.) They remain spiritually dead in hell until the day of their resurrection (D. & C. 76:103-112), until ‘death and hell’ deliver up the dead which are in them, so that they may be judged according to their works.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 757


“The great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 350

God bless you, tickingclocker, for your honesty and for standing up for Jesus and His truth in the face of opposition!

 

[fatboys]

They have contradictory teachings and if a Mormon knows one that contradicts what you've said, they'll tell you that you misrepresented them.

Here is what the Doctrine and Covenants claims:

Doctrine and Covenants 76

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

Brigham Young said, " . . . and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 312).

" . . . no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

“Those who are unfaithful, those who will listen to Satan, who will lend a willing ear to his blandishments and to his allurements, when they go from this state of existence, they go into a condition where they are subject to his power. They will dwell in darkness, and according to their sins their punishment will be. Some will be consigned to ‘outer darkness,’ where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; and they will remain in that condition until they will be visited by some servant of God to unlock the prison doors to them and to preach to them again the Gospel of salvation, through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ…They will remain in that condition, according to the enormity of their offenses, until punishment will be meted out to them sufficiently to bring them to a condition that they will receive the Gospel of salvation. That Gospel which is taught to us will be taught to them, and they will have an opportunity of obeying it in their damned condition and through repentance will receive salvation.”
Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth 1:78-79

“When the wicked depart this life, they are ‘cast out into outer darkness,’ into hell, where ‘they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord,’ where they are spiritually dead. (Alma 40:13-14.) They remain spiritually dead in hell until the day of their resurrection (D. & C. 76:103-112), until ‘death and hell’ deliver up the dead which are in them, so that they may be judged according to their works.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 757


“The great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 350

God bless you, tickingclocker, for your honesty and for standing up for Jesus and His truth in the face of opposition!

Will it do any good to explain this to you. Many many times this has been explained and it has fallen on deaf ears. Why waste our time.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Will it do any good to explain this to you. Many many times this has been explained and it has fallen on deaf ears. Why waste our time.

Why don't you give us a link to the previous place that you defended this? Then we can all see.

 

[Peter1000]

I think Mormons really do need to see the light statistically. If they were God's true church, God would have been in this and there would be way more than 4.5 million active believers. The fact that there has been a mass exodus in the last 35 years should be telling them something.

The fact that they are not converting established Christians in droves, shows me that the Holy Spirit is not guiding Christians towards this religion. Christians are easily holding their ground because Mormonism looks nothing like Christianity so we easily see that it is not for us.

I think this should all be eye opening. Looking at growth in Mormonism is pretty much because of all the children earlier generations had and the fact that Mormons in Utah were pretty much left alone for quite a long time.

If a religion has to count on their own children for building their stats, then is it really realistic of what's going on in the faith?

Because Mormonism cannot convert strong Christians is to me proof that the entire idea of apostasy is a myth. Also, the way they control their members is telling to me. When you have to isolate your people, that is a huge red flag.

All churches eventually count children that are born into the faith. We have always from the beginning counted our children when they are baptized member of the church
at the age of 8.

All churches are seeing their numbers decreasing. Mormons happen to see an increase every year. All do not stay active, and some fall away. That has also been the truth since the beginning. Most churches are not increasing, most churches are just losing membership. That is why the Mormon church is continually moving up and is now the 4th largest church in the U.S. and will soon be the 3rd largest. It will take a special event to move it into 1st place, and overtake the Catholic church, but don't think that couldn't happen.

We are converting strong Christians, thousands every year, simply because Mormonism does not look like mainstream Christianity today. Thousands of mainstream Christians every year come to the realization that their church is not like the NT church that they read about every Sunday, and they want that. Mormonism gives them that. That is why we increase every year. Not decrease.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All churches eventually count children that are born into the faith. We have always from the beginning counted our children when they are baptized member of the church
at the age of 8.

No other church counts children of 8 years old. Your church does that because it desires to.

It desires to take advantage of all the children born into the organization to inflate your numbers. That's the truth, so no one takes your numbers seriously.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All churches are seeing their numbers decreasing. Mormons happen to see an increase every year. All do not stay active, and some fall away. That has also been the truth since the beginning. Most churches are not increasing, most churches are just losing membership. That is why the Mormon church is continually moving up and is now the 4th largest church in the U.S. and will soon be the 3rd largest. It will take a special event to move it into 1st place, and overtake the Catholic church, but don't think that couldn't happen.

Yes churches are. And churches in Christianity do not try to maintain a strangle hold on our members. We don't tell them they must marry, must produce children, must tithe, what they can eat or drink, who they can associate with, who they can do business with, ect. Christian pastors do not follow a manual issued by an organization to teach all the same and then get volunteers to keep people and teachings in line.

Excommunicate each person that doesn't tow the line.

What is to be proud of in those numbers? None of those things above are spiritual or about faith and love of God? Those are worldly elements of control.

I don't know why you have so much pride in this type of organization. It stands against every element of free-will that God created us with. It does not promote a relationship with God. It promotes itself.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No other church counts children of 8 years old. Your church does that because it desires to.

It desires to take advantage of all the children born into the organization to inflate your numbers. That's the truth, so no one takes your numbers seriously.

Citation?

 

[Rescued One]

They have contradictory teachings and if a Mormon knows one that contradicts what you've said, they'll tell you that you misrepresented them.

Here is what the Doctrine and Covenants claims:

Doctrine and Covenants 76

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

Brigham Young said, " . . . and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 312).

" . . . no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

“Those who are unfaithful, those who will listen to Satan, who will lend a willing ear to his blandishments and to his allurements, when they go from this state of existence, they go into a condition where they are subject to his power. They will dwell in darkness, and according to their sins their punishment will be. Some will be consigned to ‘outer darkness,’ where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; and they will remain in that condition until they will be visited by some servant of God to unlock the prison doors to them and to preach to them again the Gospel of salvation, through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ…They will remain in that condition, according to the enormity of their offenses, until punishment will be meted out to them sufficiently to bring them to a condition that they will receive the Gospel of salvation. That Gospel which is taught to us will be taught to them, and they will have an opportunity of obeying it in their damned condition and through repentance will receive salvation.”
Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth 1:78-79

“When the wicked depart this life, they are ‘cast out into outer darkness,’ into hell, where ‘they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord,’ where they are spiritually dead. (Alma 40:13-14.) They remain spiritually dead in hell until the day of their resurrection (D. & C. 76:103-112), until ‘death and hell’ deliver up the dead which are in them, so that they may be judged according to their works.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 757


“The great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 350

God bless you, tickingclocker, for your honesty and for standing up for Jesus and His truth in the face of opposition!

Also:
Sons of Perdition
The followers of Satan who will suffer with him in eternity. Sons of perdition include (1) those who followed Satan and were cast out of heaven for rebellion during premortality, and (2) those who were permitted to be born to this world with physical bodies but then served Satan and turned utterly against God. Those in this second group will be resurrected from the dead but will not be redeemed from the second (spiritual) death and cannot dwell in a kingdom of glory (D&C 88:32, 35).

 

[mmksparbud]

Brigham Young said, " . . . and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 312).

Unless you believe in JS you will end up with the antichrist. It isn't Jesus that saves, it's JS and Jesus!!! JS wanted to be President of the US---I guess that wasn't enough power---now he is co-savior--equal to Jesus.

 

[Rescued One]

Unless you believe in JS you will end up with the antichrist. It isn't Jesus that saves, it's JS and Jesus!!! JS wanted to be President of the US---I guess that wasn't enough power---now he is co-savior--equal to Jesus.

I was so blind but uncomfortable with Mormonism. Had I not been so blind and overwhelmed by the work that had to be done, I'm sure that I would have left sooner.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Unless you believe in JS you will end up with the antichrist. It isn't Jesus that saves, it's JS and Jesus!!! JS wanted to be President of the US---I guess that wasn't enough power---now he is co-savior--equal to Jesus.

I think they think he (JS) will also sit on a throne in judgement next to Christ. *shaking my head* They've made him a God, or better yet he gave them the doctrine to make himself one.

When will they see it. I hope soon.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I was so blind but uncomfortable with Mormonism. Had I not been so blind, I'm sure that I would have left sooner.

I really think it has something to do with the doctrine that they are not suppose to be around apostates and only Mormons are not apostate. So that means every relationship they have is with another Mormon. They close themselves in on an island. Then watch each other for non-regulatory behavior.

That is cult doctrine. They close people off from everyone who would challenge their doctrine. Besides the fact that the "only true church" doctrine raises pride in their people that they are blind to themselves.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I was so blind but uncomfortable with Mormonism. Had I not been so blind and overwhelmed by the work that had to be done, I'm sure that I would have left sooner.

You don't seem like you've left: it seems like you spend a lot of time going through LDS beliefs.

 

[mmksparbud]

She has certainly helped to bring your REAL believes to the forefront.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You don't seem like you've left: it seems like you spend a lot of time going through LDS beliefs.

Who better to discuss your beliefs with than an ex-Mormon.

You complain that Christians do not know your doctrine or understand you. Then complain about ex-Mormons who understand your doctrine and lived the life your living.

So who is ok to discuss issues with you? Your Bishop?

 

[ToBeLoved]

She has certainly helped to bring your REAL believes to the forefront.

Yes she has.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Who better to discuss your beliefs with than an ex-Mormon.

You complain that Christians do not know your doctrine or understand you. Then complain about ex-Mormons who understand your doctrine and lived the life your living.

She has certainly helped to bring your REAL believes to the forefront.

With all due respect to Phoebe, her representations are usually very twisted from actual LDS beliefs, hence the many posts following hers, correcting things.

 

[mmksparbud]

She has quoted directly from your books.

 

[Jane_Doe]

She has quoted directly from your books.

Still very twisted in the ways she presents things.

 

[ToBeLoved]

With all due respect to Phoebe, her representations are usually very twisted from actual LDS beliefs, hence the many posts following hers, correcting things.

But Jane, she always lists your scripture or words from your prophets and apostles. So, it's not incorrect.

Maybe you are not really understanding all that LDS believes.

I don't think your happy with anyone who is not Mormon. You will never be happy with any apostate's opinion or any doctrine that shows your church in a bad light.

Your correction many times is 'LDS doesn't teach that' or 'that's not "OFFICAL" church doctrine'.

I've yet to see one adequate correction, unless you want to point three or four out with links to the text.