LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[withwonderingawe]

Again, Christians know through the Bible that the Holy Spirit is given to us by Christ, through the Father. We know the Holy Spirit cannot be given by man, only God.

John 14:16-18
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will beg in you. 18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

John 14:26
26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Act 8
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Act 19
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them...

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am not confused about the above things. I do find many of the responses on this thread to be using poor explaining techniques, which makes trying to understand their point of view confusing.

I am happy to discuss this.

I've been in this discussion and I find it very frustrating, so I will pass. A person cannot teach things of the Spirit.

13 And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Act 8
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Act 19
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them...

I know this is part of your doctrine for the Holy Spirit. It's not mine. See verses in above post.

 

[Jane_Doe]

A person cannot teach things of the Spirit.

If this is your belief, I find your presence on this board to be... strange.

 

[ToBeLoved]

OK, let's talk specifics then. Which of God's commandments do you consider un-important, specifically?

Please don't be so rude Jane. I made myself clear above.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I know this is part of your doctrine for the Holy Spirit. It's not mine. See verses in above post.

So does your Bible not include Acts 8:14-17 or Acts 19:5-6?

If it does (which is what I'm assuming), how do you reconcile these verses with your beliefs?

 

[ToBeLoved]

If this is your belief, I find your presence on this board to be... strange.

That is not what the Bible says. My understanding is completely Biblical. See previous post for verses.

 

[tickingclocker]

The one thing we do hold in common is that Jesus is the Christ, the lamb chosen before the foundation of the world to pay for our sins. Only by bowing our knee to him can anyone attain salvation from sin.

Another thing is that we should love God with our whole hearts and minds and love our neighbors.

No, mormonism's Jesus is beyond different of what biblical Christianity knows of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, because what you wrote is only the tip of JS's "Jesus Christ" iceberg, and we all know it. Don't we? You can try claiming the opposite forever, but the two will never be the same Savior and Lord. Never. A "likeness" can never be the same as the actual.

Nobody said a single word about loving your neighbor or not loving you neighbors here, simply because I responded to a veiled suggestion by Fatboys. Don't bother trying to steer the conversation down a pointless and unnecessary side road. Also, IF it was meant as a guilt trip, they no longer work with ex-mormons. IF it was intended as one (and only you know), you should also know if I ever saw one--the above is the #1 most tired classic. Very sad if so, seeing moral people stoop to such lows, simply because I told the truth and they resent seeing it in official black and white. Well, all I can say is, tough love is still love where I come from.

 

[mmksparbud]

No it's the other way around. One can receive the prompting of the Holy Spirit, that prick in the heart that testifies Jesus is the Christ and which moves them to ask what more do we need, (see acts 2) but if we do not act on that prompting then the Holy Spirit will leave.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost given through a priesthood holder by the laying on of hands is a permanent gift. The Holy Spirit resides with us as a guide throughout our lives.

Are you saying that when your priests lay hands and they impart the Holy Spirit, that person can not grieve the Holy Spirit away?? Please state the verse that says God gives the Holy Spirit temporarily.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So does your Bible not include Acts 8:14-17 or Acts 19:5-6.

That was soon after Christ's death and Pentecost. For a time that was a gift given specifically to the disciples of Christ. It is not now. That is why I said that that is not the doctrine I follow about the Holy Spirit, which is given by Christ.

 

[Jane_Doe]

That is not what the Bible says. My understanding is completely Biblical. See previous post for verses.

But you are here, trying to teach spiritual things (which contradicts your stated beliefs). That is what I find puzzling.

 

[Jane_Doe]

That was soon after Christ's death and Pentecost. For a time that was a gift given specifically to the disciples of Christ. It is not now. That is why I said that that is not the doctrine I follow about the Holy Spirit, which is given by Christ.

(Bolding mine).

And where in the Bible does it say God changed His ways in this regard?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Are you saying that when your priests lay hands and they impart the Holy Spirit, that person can not grieve the Holy Spirit away??

It is not the man giving it, but God. The priest is merely a messenger. This is the Biblical way.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is not the man giving it, but God. The priest is merely a messenger. This is the Biblical way.

Does not answer my question!! Are you saying that once your priest hands down the Holy Spirit, he can no longer grieve away the Holy Spirit?? And where does it say when God bestows the Holy Spirit it is temporary until a priest lays hands on you??

 

[tickingclocker]

I said that speaking about God in generalities can easily wander into opinion. Note the word 'generalities'. That is why I said I will not discuss important concepts using generalities.

Please read what I write please.

Thank you, TBL, for that amazingly accurate point of insight. God IS Holy. We need to be reminded of that more often than not. Not many people realize there is a critical difference when speaking of the Lord. (That is not directed "at" Mormons either, but to everyone, including myself a times. There is no shame in admitting no one is immune.) It's so easy to slip and fall back on "opinion" when there is a void in one's ongoing spiritual edification. Too, too often, way too many people revert to doing so. I believe its done from either fear or pride, or even both through some mistaken sense of "saving face". I'd rather be found wrong and openly shamed for it, than ever offend the Lord with "generalities or opinions" about Him. God knows I've had too much of that shoved down my throat over the years, and told it was from the "Holy Spirit" that someone else determined for me.

You made my day.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I know this is part of your doctrine for the Holy Spirit. It's not mine. See verses in above post.

So you dismiss the parts of the Bible which don't fit your doctrine??

See I can accept the whole Bible. The priesthood is the power to act in the name of God. Jesus is the head of the Order of Melchizedek. A man holding this priesthood acts in the name of Jesus when he bestows the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's just like at our baptisms which are done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, the man standing in the water with us acts in their name.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But you are here, trying to teach spiritual things (which contradicts your stated beliefs). That is what I find puzzling.

Earlier in this thread we had a good four pages on this topic. Look back for the scripture and answers.

I am not going to have that conversation all over again. I provided detailed answers, so if your really interested you will check that out.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So you dismiss the parts of the Bible which don't fit your doctrine??

See I can accept the whole Bible. The priesthood is the power to act in the name of God. Jesus is the head of the Order of Melchizedek. A man holding this priesthood acts in the name of Jesus when he bestows the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's just like at our baptisms which are done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, the man standing in the water with us acts in their name.

Wrong. See answer above.

It would be nice if you guys would read the posts. It would answer your questions, before you again, ask your questions.

 

[Super14LDS]

So you dismiss the parts of the Bible which don't fit your doctrine??

See I can accept the whole Bible. The priesthood is the power to act in the name of God. Jesus is the head of the Order of Melchizedek. A man holding this priesthood acts in the name of Jesus when he bestows the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's just like at our baptisms which are done in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, the man standing in the water with us acts in their name.

Curious what words did John the Baptist say when he baptized Jesus?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thank you, TBL, for that amazingly accurate point of insight. God IS Holy. We need to be reminded of that more often than not. Not many people realize there is a critical difference when speaking of the Lord. (That is not directed "at" Mormons either, but to everyone, including myself a times. There is no shame in admitting no one is immune.) It's so easy to slip and fall back on "opinion" when there is a void in one's ongoing spiritual edification. Too, too often, way too many people revert to doing so. I believe its done from either fear or pride, or even both through some mistaken sense of "saving face". I'd rather be found wrong and openly shamed for it, than ever offend the Lord with "generalities or opinions" about Him. God knows I've had too much of that shoved down my throat over the years, and told it was from the "Holy Spirit" that someone else determined for me.

You made my day.

So awesome! You made my day with this post.