LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[ToBeLoved]

No, after he followed his latest home-wrecker into her Protestant congregation, he started getting all sorts of attention for being an "ex-Mormon". As near as anyone can figure, this is where he got the idea from to start a career.

I think you really need something factual to base that on and I don't think it had anything to do with being Protestant unless He wanted to show that Mormonism is very different from CHristainity.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Read the links I gave you, both the original batch in 553 and the batch of my own responses.

It's all right there.

No, it's not. You had links for others but not for Ed Decker. If there were references it wouldn't be hard for you to provide them even if you provided them before.

Fact is that there doesn't even seem to be a "National Council of Christians and Jews", let alone anything where they say that Ed Decker is a liar.

I looked at your previous posts and there's nothing about Ed Decker. The links you do provide, when they are investigated, are mostly accusations that have no proof.

And you still are unable to tell me how it is that you are being "persecuted" - from what I can gather you feel that mormons are "persecuted" when others disagree with your beliefs and expose the beliefs that your religion tries to keep hidden. That's not persecution. You may not like that, but it's not persecution.

Also, I'm trying to understand what your point is about people who "persecute" mormons. Even if it's true, why is this such a problem for your religion? Are people being physically hurt or killed? It seems that it's more a matter of being hurt as in hurt feelings, and that seems to be a result of being over-sensitive. I don't understand the "persecution" that you're claiming and I see no evidence of it; I only see people being offensive at worst but for the most part just voicing their disagreement with mormonism.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

What about all of the offices mentioned in the biblical church?
Apostles
Bishops (presbyterio)
Elders (presbyterio)
Deacons
Teachers
Pastors (episkopoi)
Evangelists

Of these offices, how many do you have in your church?

My Church has all of them.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Uh, no. This is not at all true. If this is your "understanding", then you need to go back and re-assess the facts.

1. Decker converted to the church as an adult so that he could marry someone. He was never a "lifelong" member as you have asserted.

2. Decker was never faithful to this person, and was constantly having affairs.

3. Decker's first wife got tired of these affairs and so finally filed for divorce. The local church leadership found out about the divorce, and upon learning why she was filing for divorce began excommunication proceedings.

Decker's first wife came forward with her copy of the divorce paperwork in the early 1990s, making it very clear what really happened.



The collective failure of mainline Christianity to ask pertinent questions and get pertinent facts is mainline Christianity's problem.

Oh look, more "facts" with absolutely no evidence or reference.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Oh look, more "facts" with absolutely no evidence or reference.

Take a look here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Decker

 

[Peter1000]

My Church has all of them.

What are the names of your Apostles? And don't name me the original, biblical 12 Apostles. The reason you can't include them is because we have about 1/1000 of their holy words, which are still applicable to our day, but the foundation of the biblical church was living apostles and prophets. What are the names of your living apostles?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Take a look here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Decker

Sounds like he told his story. You did not live his life. He sinned, but we all do which is why we need a Savior.

 

[Albion]

What are the names of your Apostles? And don't name me the original, biblical 12 Apostles. The reason you can't include them is because we have about 1/1000 of their holy words, which are still applicable to our day, but the foundation of the biblical church was living apostles and prophets. What are the names of your living apostles?

They're almost always listed on the church website. There's no reason to play a taunting game like this.

 

[Peter1000]

Priests and kings----future---ok---so why do you have priests now?

Because we are a royal "priest"hood. We are all priests unto our King (Jesus).

Not the same kind of priest of the ancient Aaronic order, who did sacrifices and other temple ordinances.
But priests that assist the bishop in his local area, that prepare the sacred sacraments, and keep the grounds nice and take confessions, and help the local people with religious issues, at time give sermons. These are all priestly duties that are done even today in the Roman Catholic church, the one church that at least say they have an unbroken chain back to Peter. So if they have "priests", there must be a reason.

 

[Peter1000]

They're almost always listed on the church website. There's no reason to play a taunting game like this.

What is the website, there are hundreds.

 

[Albion]

What is the website, there are hundreds.

C'mon. He states that he's a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church. You can take it from there if you are able to handle the computer sufficient to make posts on this forum.

 

[Peter1000]

Like I said---I am not interested in the personality traits of these people---I was only asking about the lies you felt were being told about Mormonism---their Christianity is a whole other subject.

I can tell you a couple of lies that Ed told in The god Makers.

He said the Mormon church's whole purpose was to create a world religion that dominated all other religions for the purpose of creating an evil empire for money and power.

Well on the one hand he is correct. The Church has been instructed to teach the gospel to all nations and to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the HS. This world-wide effort is being accomplished and as the second coming comes ever closer, it is important that a world-wide organization exists, because Jesus will rule for a thousand years and will need that organization to help him govern.

This LDS world organization could care less about power and money, except in the accomplishing the direct order of Jesus Christ. It takes millions of dollars to create and maintain a world organization, and the Mormon church people give at least 10% of their gross income to help build this kingdom of God here on earth. It is happening, but certainly not like Ed is saying. He is telling a total lie.

The other lie that made me laugh. As I can remember, there was a small country somewhere in the world that had an evil god by the name of Mormos. This said Ed was pure evidence that Mormon was an evil god that visited JS and set up a devil church. It was a total lie.

 

[Peter1000]

C'mon. He states that he's a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church. You can take it from there if you are able to handle the computer sufficient to make posts on this forum.

Thanks Albion?

 

[Peter1000]

They are pastors, episkopoi and presbyteroi (bishops and presbyters).

As I noted elsewhere the English word "priest" etymologically descends from the Greek word presbyteros, as presbyter in Latin, prester, priester, and finally priest. As such "priest" as a term for Christian clergy refers to presbyters or "elders"; however the word "priest" is also used to translate the Greek word hiereus, which is what those who served in temples were called whether Jewish or Pagan.

The Church does not have an order of hieries, "priests", the Church does not have an ordained hierateia, a "priesthood"; but rather ordained presbyters, a presbyterate--pastoral ministers who serve within the Church by preaching the Word and administering the Sacraments.

And that is a difference not merely of semantics, but of substance.

The Church does not have people who do this:

The Church has people who do this:

and this

They do so not as intermediaries between the people and God--an essential component of what a hiereus is--but as servants.

Thus, strictly speaking, the Church has pastors, not priests. And yes, by this I also include Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics don't have "priests" either.

Presbyteros, not hiereus.

-CryptoLutheran

You say: Thus, strictly speaking, the Church has pastors, not priests. And yes, by this I also include Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics don't have "priests" either.

Is this new, that you and the RC do not have "priests". The last thing I knew, you could still hear confession from a "priest". Let me know if I am wrong. Thanks.

 

[Albion]

There is a difference between their priests and the priests we know from the OT Hebrew religion, although there are similarities.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You say: Thus, strictly speaking, the Church has pastors, not priests. And yes, by this I also include Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics don't have "priests" either.

Is this new, that you and the RC do not have "priests". The last thing I knew, you could still hear confession from a "priest". Let me know if I am wrong. Thanks.

I've been pretty clear in my responses so far, so I don't understand why you would be asking this.

The term "priest" in reference to Christian clergy refers to pastors. I've been pretty extensive in my explanation on this subject. Is there something that you found unclear in that Christian clergy are episcopos and presbyteros (bishop and presbyter)--pastors--not "priests", i.e., hiereus? No Christian church has an order of hiereis, "priests"; we have pastors. Those pastors can be called "priests" because the word "priest" is derived from the word presbyter and we have presbyters.

Roman Catholic priests are presbyters, not "priests".

Presbyteros =/= hiereus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter1000]

C'mon. He states that he's a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church. You can take it from there if you are able to handle the computer sufficient to make posts on this forum.

It is as I thought. I have now searched for 1/2 hour and found lots of references to the original 12 apostles and the original apostles who preached in the Armenia area.

I could find nothing on living apostles. They could be listed on another website, but there are hundreds, so it would be nice if someone knew the website and directed me to it, that would be helpful. Maybe you know.

 

[Peter1000]

I've been pretty clear in my responses so far, so I don't understand why you would be asking this.

The term "priest" in reference to Christian clergy refers to pastors. I've been pretty extensive in my explanation on this subject. Is there something that you found unclear in that Christian clergy are episcopos and presbyteros (bishop and presbyter)--pastors--not "priests", i.e., hiereus? No Christian church has an order of hiereis, "priests"; we have pastors. Those pastors can be called "priests" because the word "priest" is derived from the word presbyter and we have presbyters.

Roman Catholic priests are presbyters, not "priests".

Presbyteros =/= hiereus.

-CryptoLutheran

You have been very articulate and clear, but I have never heard a person say that I am going to confess to the pastor in the RC church. Pastor usually has reference to a protestant minister.

It seems you are getting a little frustrated that I would have the gaul to question you about the usage of the word "priest". I agree that today, "priests" are not similar to the temple "priests" of the ancient Jewish religion, and I also understand that "presbyter" = "priest", but it is by far more common to use "priest". Also, anciently, I believe the word "presbyters" referred to the word "elders" . But to say we use "pastor" and not "priest" today, even in the RC, to me, it did not seem to be true.

So I read the following and it helped me out:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/blackw...the-difference-between-a-pastor-and-a-priest/

You can also google the following:
Google "Catholic priests"
Google "Orthodox priests"
Google "Lutheran priests"

If you do not want to respond, that's alright because I understand how it works now. Thanks for your information.

 

[Peter1000]

There is a difference between their priests and the priests we know from the OT Hebrew religion, although there are similarities.

That is true.

 

[Albion]

You have been very articulate and clear, but I have never heard a person say that I am going to confess to the pastor in the RC church. Pastor usually has reference to a protestant minister.

Actually, that's not correct. While it's most common to refer to him as "the priest" or "my priest" or something like that, the priest who is the head of the parish is the "pastor." In my church, we call that person the "Rector," and some other churches use other terms, but that's the standard Catholic word.

It seems you are getting a little frustrated that I would have the gaul to question you about the usage of the word "priest". I agree that today, "priests" are not similar to the temple "priests" of the ancient Jewish religion, and I also understand that "presbyter" = "priest", but it is by far more common to use "priest".

Here I agree with you. "Presbyter" is almost never used by Roman Catholics unless it's some scholarly paper or the root of the term "priest" is being explained.

Also, anciently, I believe the word "presbyters" referred to the word "elders" .

That's right. They were the same.

FWIW, I think Via Crucis did slightly overstate his case because in the RCC it is argued that Protestant priests, such as in the Anglican churches, are not valid because they do not offer sacrifices. The comparison is thereby explicitly being made to the Levite priests of the OT offering animal sacrifice in the temple in order to put away their sins.

We of the reformed churches of course do not believe that the sacrifice of the Cross can be repeated or made ongoing or whatever other justification is handed out by the RCC when explaining the "sacrifice of the Mass" or how their presbyters are superior to any other churches' ministers.