LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Ironhold]

It doesn't matter. It was still the Mormon church that is why he did what he did. Because they lied to him.

No, he did what he did because he's a scumbag.

He couldn't keep his pants on, yet his wife was constantly counseled by the local church leadership to keep taking him back.

Face reality.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, he did what he did because he's a scumbag.

He couldn't keep his pants on, yet his wife was constantly counseled by the local church leadership to keep taking him back.

So he made two movies that we anti-Mormon because he had an affair? Okie, dokie. I think you should face the facts that the critics all have a reason for what they do.

It's further proof that it's opinion because you call him a scumbag and mention his affair. Utah has one of the highest divorce rates in the country, lots of not keeping pants on going on.

 

[mmksparbud]

OK---I clicked on Chick #5---Yes----they take their accusations about you and try to explain them away. Like the fact that you have your scriptures, and they contradict the bible and the bible you say is mistranslated.---you, of course, insist that your scriptures do not contract the bible and that you do read the bible all the time----This is all I intend to read-
Your scriptures are not biblical, and you do claim that our bible is not only mistranslated, but corrupt. But I know that you claim to be avid readers and believers in the bible---as long as they seem to be in agreement with yours. So, in reality they are not lying. They have not perhaps written their views in the language of the Mormon way of disguising the reality of the facts. If they had said, "Mormons agree the bible is the word of God and adhere to it, as long as it does not contradict their own scriptures" it would have been more accurate??

 

[ViaCrucis]

What about your ordained, professional ministers?

They are pastors, episkopoi and presbyteroi (bishops and presbyters).

As I noted elsewhere the English word "priest" etymologically descends from the Greek word presbyteros, as presbyter in Latin, prester, priester, and finally priest. As such "priest" as a term for Christian clergy refers to presbyters or "elders"; however the word "priest" is also used to translate the Greek word hiereus, which is what those who served in temples were called whether Jewish or Pagan.

The Church does not have an order of hieries, "priests", the Church does not have an ordained hierateia, a "priesthood"; but rather ordained presbyters, a presbyterate--pastoral ministers who serve within the Church by preaching the Word and administering the Sacraments.

And that is a difference not merely of semantics, but of substance.

The Church does not have people who do this:

The Church has people who do this:

and this

They do so not as intermediaries between the people and God--an essential component of what a hiereus is--but as servants.

Thus, strictly speaking, the Church has pastors, not priests. And yes, by this I also include Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics don't have "priests" either.

Presbyteros, not hiereus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you have a good ad-blocker program on your browser?

If so, links will follow.

Responses to material produced by J. Edward Decker

http://ironhold.deviantart.com/art/Response-to-Ed-Decker-1-54691800?q=gallery:Ironhold/36820625&qo=11

http://ironhold.deviantart.com/art/Response-to-Ed-Decker-no-2-64990477?q=gallery:Ironhold/36820625&qo=23

Responses to material produced by Chick Publications

http://ironhold.deviantart.com/art/Response-to-Chick-1-v2-0-148013599?q=gallery:Ironhold/36820625&qo=37

http://ironhold.deviantart.com/art/Response-to-Chick-2-64715644?q=gallery:Ironhold/36820625&qo=22

http://ironhold.deviantart.com/art/Response-to-Chick-3-67673538?q=gallery:Ironhold/36820625&qo=25

http://ironhold.deviantart.com/art/response-to-Chick-4-79135829?q=gallery:Ironhold/36820625&qo=30

http://ironhold.deviantart.com/art/Response-To-Chick-5-140852196?q=gallery:Ironhold/36820625&qo=36

And just for fun, me shutting down the LCMS: http://ironhold.deviantart.com/art/Reply-What-About-Mormonism-214422216

That one time I went on that site I had 9 attacks and my computer froze, had to scan and clean----won't do that again.

 

[Peter1000]

There is no priesthood!!! Period!! We are called priests---that is every believer is called a priest--every believer is also called a King!!!! Why are you not arguing about Kings??? Why do you not have kings??? I've asked and asked but you all just ignore that and keep on with the priests---no priesthood---this is not rocket science! The priesthood was done away with. It is in black and white and all over the book of Hebrews, We are all, as individuals referred to as priest, just as we are referred to as the temples of God----and we are referred to us Kings---so again-----where are your kings??? Why do you not have a KING???---but it doesn't say that there is A king, but that we are all KINGS, as we are all priests----

Although the office of priest does exist today, the office of King is in the future. If we overcome this world and endure to the end, then Jesus will give us a calling of King and we will help him govern this new earth.

We know that the calling of King, is futuristic because there was nobody called to be King in the biblical church. So we should look forward to being Kings and priests unto the Most High God in the future.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Although the office of priest does exist today, the office of King is in the future. If we overcome this world and endure to the end, then Jesus will give us a calling of King and we will help him govern this new earth.

We know that the calling of King, is futuristic because there was nobody called to be King in the biblical church. So we should look forward to being Kings and priests unto the Most High God in the future.

Yet,

"Come to him, a living stone, though rejected by mortals yet chosen and precious in God’s sight, and 5 like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in scripture:

'See, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.'

To you then who believe, he is precious; but for those who do not believe, 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the very head of the corner,' and 'A stone that makes them stumble, and a rock that makes them fall.'

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." - 1 Peter 2:5-11

and

"John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood, and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." - Revelation 1:4-6

"They sing a new song:

'You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation; you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God, and they will reign on the earth.'" - Revleation 5:9-10

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." - Ephesians 2:4-7

We aren't going to become kings at some future time, we are now kings and priests in Christ. We are seated, even now, with Christ in heavenly places; God has made us kings and priests, a royal priesthood.

The kingdom is not limited to the future Eschaton, the kingdom is here even now as Christ, the Lord, reigns as King of kings even at the right hand of the Father, in glory, until the day He comes and makes all things new. Both now and in the age to come, we are Christ's, and if Christ's, children of God; and if we are God's children by the adoption we have received by His mercy, then we are kings and priests.

But in God's kingdom what it means to be king means something very different than what it means to be king in this fallen world; for the royal power and authority of God does not look like a magisterial prince seated on a gilded throne arrayed in precious jewelry, instead the royal power and authority of God looks like a carpenter from Galilee nailed to a cross whom the powers that be said "was a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of sinners and tax collectors".

My King is a dirty peasant from Nazareth who spent His time with the poor, the lowly, with prostitutes, lepers, sinners, and the undesirable. For it is these for whom the kingdom of God is for; and it is for these that the banquet table is open, the garments made ready, and the feast of the ages offered.

"So Jesus called them and said to them, 'You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.'" - Mark 10:42-45

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

Although the office of priest does exist today, the office of King is in the future. If we overcome this world and endure to the end, then Jesus will give us a calling of King and we will help him govern this new earth.

We know that the calling of King, is futuristic because there was nobody called to be King in the biblical church. So we should look forward to being Kings and priests unto the Most High God in the future.

Priests and kings----future---ok---so why do you have priests now?

 

[Peter1000]

They are pastors, episkopoi and presbyteroi (bishops and presbyters).

As I noted elsewhere the English word "priest" etymologically descends from the Greek word presbyteros, as presbyter in Latin, prester, priester, and finally priest. As such "priest" as a term for Christian clergy refers to presbyters or "elders"; however the word "priest" is also used to translate the Greek word hiereus, which is what those who served in temples were called whether Jewish or Pagan.

The Church does not have an order of hieries, "priests", the Church does not have an ordained hierateia, a "priesthood"; but rather ordained presbyters, a presbyterate--pastoral ministers who serve within the Church by preaching the Word and administering the Sacraments.

And that is a difference not merely of semantics, but of substance.

The Church does not have people who do this:

The Church has people who do this:

and this

They do so not as intermediaries between the people and God--an essential component of what a hiereus is--but as servants.

Thus, strictly speaking, the Church has pastors, not priests. And yes, by this I also include Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics don't have "priests" either.

Presbyteros, not hiereus.

-CryptoLutheran

What about all of the offices mentioned in the biblical church?
Apostles
Bishops (presbyterio)
Elders (presbyterio)
Deacons
Teachers
Pastors (episkopoi)
Evangelists

Of these offices, how many do you have in your church?

 

[Peter1000]

Yet,

"Come to him, a living stone, though rejected by mortals yet chosen and precious in God’s sight, and 5 like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in scripture:

'See, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.'

To you then who believe, he is precious; but for those who do not believe, 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the very head of the corner,' and 'A stone that makes them stumble, and a rock that makes them fall.'

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, in order that you may proclaim the mighty acts of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." - 1 Peter 2:5-11

and

"John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood, and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." - Revelation 1:4-6

"They sing a new song:

'You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation; you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God, and they will reign on the earth.'" - Revleation 5:9-10

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." - Ephesians 2:4-7

We aren't going to become kings at some future time, we are now kings and priests in Christ. We are seated, even now, with Christ in heavenly places; God has made us kings and priests, a royal priesthood.

The kingdom is not limited to the future Eschaton, the kingdom is here even now as Christ, the Lord, reigns as King of kings even at the right hand of the Father, in glory, until the day He comes and makes all things new. Both now and in the age to come, we are Christ's, and if Christ's, children of God; and if we are God's children by the adoption we have received by His mercy, then we are kings and priests.

But in God's kingdom what it means to be king means something very different than what it means to be king in this fallen world; for the royal power and authority of God does not look like a magisterial prince seated on a gilded throne arrayed in precious jewelry, instead the royal power and authority of God looks like a carpenter from Galilee nailed to a cross whom the powers that be said "was a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of sinners and tax collectors".

My King is a dirty peasant from Nazareth who spent His time with the poor, the lowly, with prostitutes, lepers, sinners, and the undesirable. For it is these for whom the kingdom of God is for; and it is for these that the banquet table is open, the garments made ready, and the feast of the ages offered.

"So Jesus called them and said to them, 'You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.'" - Mark 10:42-45

-CryptoLutheran

You say: We aren't going to become kings at some future time, we are now kings and priests in Christ. We are seated, even now, with Christ in heavenly places; God has made us kings and priests, a royal priesthood.

I'm not sure if you are serious or dilusional? I know your smart, but this confuses me. so a couple of questions?

If you are a king now, what kingdom do you rule? If God's kings are different from kings on earth explain the difference?

If you are seated now with Christ in heavenly places, you also seem to be here on earth, responding to my post?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

He is "exposing" is lying. Do you approve of this?

Is lying "presenting the true Gospel, which is what Christians should be doing"?

I don't see where he is lying. Certainly not in his bio, but I don't see anywhere else that he is lying. No, I don't approve of lying but I have nothing to go on other than your accusation that he is lying. Can you show where he is lying?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Thing is, he's telling lies to his audience.

Even non-Mormons have called him out for spreading lies and hate speech.

You keep missing that.

Well I don't see where you've shown me that. You've shown me accusations that he is lying but not that he actually is. Do you have some proof?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

So telling lies about people and inspiring others to hate them is just kosher?

No, telling lies about people and inspiring others to hate them is not just kosher. So where is Ed Decker doing this?

I asked you how it is you are being persecuted by Ed Decker. You claim he is telling lies and inspiring others to hate you. Where can I see some proof of this?

Well, you were so quick to drop the bit about what happens elsewhere?

I don't understand what "bit about what happens elsewhere" you are talking about here. Please explain.

The guy is lying.

Even the National Council of Christians & Jews has told him (Decker) to shut up and get over himself.

Can you provide a reference? I searched for a "National Council of Christians and Jews" and found only a Council of Christians and Jews (CCJ) and an International Council of Christians and Jews (ICCJ). I searched both sites for "Ed Decker" and got zero results.

You've dodged the fact that your own side is guilty of some pretty heinous things, and that you'll have no chance of success until you own up to it.

How have I dodged this? First of all, what is my "own side"? Are you saying I'm a "countercult" person? Also, with everything you've shown me, very little has been "heinous". Most of it is some Christians who are trying to expose Mormonism and are doing so in a way that may make mormons feel offended. As much as I don't think people should be trying to offend mormons, I also know that mormons tend to become offended too easily too often in that they will take offense to simple disagreement which shouldn't offend them.

It seems to me that you have taken on an "us against them" mentality and you see non-mormons, particularly those who have ministries that expose mormonism, as being persecutors of mormons simply because they disagree with what mormonism says and they publish or preach that disagreement. From a Christian perspective we are supposed to help others by exposing false teachings wherever we can, just as Jesus did.

So please, let me know in what way you are being "persecuted" by Ed Decker and feel free to provide proof that he is lying and inspiring others to hate mormons. I really can't believe it until I see some kind of evidence.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You say: We aren't going to become kings at some future time, we are now kings and priests in Christ. We are seated, even now, with Christ in heavenly places; God has made us kings and priests, a royal priesthood.

I'm not sure if you are serious or dilusional? I know your smart, but this confuses me. so a couple of questions?

If you are a king now, what kingdom do you rule? If God's kings are different from kings on earth explain the difference?

Was Jesus King while on earth? He seemed to think so, consider Jesus before Pilate in John ch. 18. Also what does He say, "My kingdom is not of this world".

God's kingdom isn't like the kingdoms of this world. Christ didn't come preaching the good news that He would be the next Caesar, or that He would dethrone Herod, or join with the Zealots in their violent schemes; but He did come preaching that the kingdom of God was at hand.

I don't rule a kingdom. I don't rule a kingdom now, and I won't rule anything in the future either.

Instead, consider Jesus' response to what the sons of Zebedee asked of Him, namely that "the greatest among you is your slave" that it is the least that is greatest.

God's kingdom doesn't look anything like the kingdoms of this present world. God's kingdom doesn't look like a Caesar or a Herod, it looks like Jesus telling Zaccheus that He would go to his house and have dinner with him, it looks like a father running to meet his prodigal son, it looks like a Samaritan tending to the wounds of a cultural enemy, it looks like Jesus saying to a dead girl, "talitha koum" and to a dead Lazarus, "Come forth" it looks like Jesus saying, "Your sins are forgiven" and "Get up and walk". It looks like Jesus talking to the woman caught in adultery saying, "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more". It looks like a naked carpenter hanging on a Roman cross saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani!?" and "Forgive them, they know not what they do".

The kingdom of God does not come with observation, no one says, "It's over here!" or "Look, there!", instead the kingdom was in the midst of the people, and it looked like Jesus.

If you are seated now with Christ in heavenly places, you also seem to be here on earth, responding to my post?

And yet it is what Scripture says. So, perhaps "heavenly places" doesn't refer to some location "up there". Because Heaven, the abode of God and the immediacy of God's presence, isn't about location.

Solomon says, "The heavens, even the heavens of heavens, cannot contain You! How much less this house which I have built."

Because imagining that God is basically a person, a human writ large, located somewhere out there in the cosmos is fundamentally wrong. God cannot be contained anywhere, He is everywhere. For there is one God and Father "of all, over all, through all, and in all" and "in Him we live and move and have our being".

We are seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus because we are found, in Christ, and Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory. It's not about where we are, but Whose we are.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ironhold]

So he made two movies that we anti-Mormon because he had an affair?

No, after he followed his latest home-wrecker into her Protestant congregation, he started getting all sorts of attention for being an "ex-Mormon". As near as anyone can figure, this is where he got the idea from to start a career.

Utah has one of the highest divorce rates in the country,

Once again, you're presuming "Utah = 100% Mormon".

It's not.

In some of your bigger cities like SLC, members of the church are now a minority.

 

[Ironhold]

OK---I clicked on Chick #5---Yes----they take their accusations about you and try to explain them away. Like the fact that you have your scriptures, and they contradict the bible and the bible you say is mistranslated.---you, of course, insist that your scriptures do not contract the bible and that you do read the bible all the time----This is all I intend to read-
Your scriptures are not biblical, and you do claim that our bible is not only mistranslated, but corrupt. But I know that you claim to be avid readers and believers in the bible---as long as they seem to be in agreement with yours. So, in reality they are not lying. They have not perhaps written their views in the language of the Mormon way of disguising the reality of the facts. If they had said, "Mormons agree the bible is the word of God and adhere to it, as long as it does not contradict their own scriptures" it would have been more accurate??

It sounds like you are trying to explain away the fact that a number of big-name "Good Christians" have been caught in lies.

 

[Ironhold]

That one time I went on that site I had 9 attacks and my computer froze, had to scan and clean----won't do that again.

That's why I asked about whether or not you had an ad-blocker.

DA gets the vast majority of its revenue from banner ads and the like, something that's problematic as hackers have figured out that it's more effective to breach ad servers than individual websites.

This is why I keep Ad-Block Plus and a host of other goodies running at all times, no matter how often people beg me to turn them off.

And yes, I *did* plan to create my own site eventually, but with the recession and my present financial situation I can't afford the hosting fee.

 

[Ironhold]

Do you have some proof?

It's in the links you keep refusing to read.

 

[Ironhold]

No, telling lies about people and inspiring others to hate them is not just kosher. So where is Ed Decker doing this?

I asked you how it is you are being persecuted by Ed Decker. You claim he is telling lies and inspiring others to hate you. Where can I see some proof of this?


I don't understand what "bit about what happens elsewhere" you are talking about here. Please explain.


Can you provide a reference? I searched for a "National Council of Christians and Jews" and found only a Council of Christians and Jews (CCJ) and an International Council of Christians and Jews (ICCJ). I searched both sites for "Ed Decker" and got zero results.


How have I dodged this? First of all, what is my "own side"? Are you saying I'm a "countercult" person? Also, with everything you've shown me, very little has been "heinous". Most of it is some Christians who are trying to expose Mormonism and are doing so in a way that may make mormons feel offended. As much as I don't think people should be trying to offend mormons, I also know that mormons tend to become offended too easily too often in that they will take offense to simple disagreement which shouldn't offend them.

It seems to me that you have taken on an "us against them" mentality and you see non-mormons, particularly those who have ministries that expose mormonism, as being persecutors of mormons simply because they disagree with what mormonism says and they publish or preach that disagreement. From a Christian perspective we are supposed to help others by exposing false teachings wherever we can, just as Jesus did.

So please, let me know in what way you are being "persecuted" by Ed Decker and feel free to provide proof that he is lying and inspiring others to hate mormons. I really can't believe it until I see some kind of evidence.

Read the links I gave you, both the original batch in 553 and the batch of my own responses.

It's all right there.

 

[mmksparbud]

It sounds like you are trying to explain away the fact that a number of big-name "Good Christians" have been caught in lies.

Like I said---I am not interested in the personality traits of these people---I was only asking about the lies you felt were being told about Mormonism---their Christianity is a whole other subject.