• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why is it that many Christians

Status
Not open for further replies.

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,096
okie
✟222,536.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Does God care that so many disrespect God and don't listen to Jesus Who Died for them ?
If God cares, what did He do about it?
Did God make any effort to communicate His Will to men ? Does He TODAY ?
Did God EVER write anything Himself ?
If God wrote something Himself,
wouldn't that be valuable beyond measure, more important than anything man dreams up(religion) ?
LIFE !
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,248
6,240
Montreal, Quebec
✟301,985.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
When God called certain animals an abomination,
though, that is not just concerning the Jews.
Not according to this text, which shows that God intended the kosher food laws to be distinctive to Jews:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

I am fairly confident I can find similar other texts which strongly imply, if not outright declare, that the Law of Moses was given to separate the Jew from the rest of the world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,096
okie
✟222,536.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine
Yeah,
people who don't want to be holy,
people who don't want to be set apart for God, by God,
people who don't want to be God's people,

aren't required to be. 'course, they have a different ending....
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,248
6,240
Montreal, Quebec
✟301,985.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Paul also continued to live in accordance with the law (Acts 21:24) and said that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather it upholds it (Romans 3:31).
Romans 3:31 is indeed a challenge, and I am not, at this moment, prepared to answer it. But there are quite a few texts where Paul outright declares the end of the Law of Moses, not least Ephesians 2:15 (assuming Paul wrote Ephesians). So we both have work to do to defend our respective positions.

As for Paul continuing to follow the Law, here is his explanation:

To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

Paul knew the Law no longer applied to him (a Jew), but he followed so as not to offend Jews he was trying to convert.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,248
6,240
Montreal, Quebec
✟301,985.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yeah,
people who don't want to be holy,
people who don't want to be set apart for God, by God,
people who don't want to be God's people,
You are adding something to the text that is simply not there - nowhere in that passage from Leviticus 20 is such a qualification given. Are you seriously suggesting that by "peoples", God is referring to disobedient humanity and not to the Gentiles? I would be stunned if any creditable scholar understand "set apart from the peoples" to be anything other than a way of saying "set apart from the Gentiles". Clearly Peter sees it this way - in his dream presented in Acts, the dividing line between those who consider some foods as unclean and others who do not is the Jew vs Gentile divide, and not any "obedient" vs "disobedient" set of categories.

In any event, the message that the Law of Moses sets the Jew apart from the Gentile is all over the Old Testament! So how can God intend the Gentile to follow the Law?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,248
6,240
Montreal, Quebec
✟301,985.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
A better question: how can anyone versed in Scripture think that Gentiles are free to be lawless? Gentiles have not been redeemed for God's law, but rather from lawlessness (Titus 2:14).
No one is denying that Gentiles should not be "lawless". But they never were, and are still not, under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,632
4,675
Hudson
✟343,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
No. Just because something is good and righteous does not mean it cannot come to an end. And more specifically, just because God is holy and righteous does not mean the Law of Moses - which God indeed instituted - cannot come to an end.

Holiness, righteousness, and goodness do not exist externally to God so that God is subservient to some standard of conduct outside of Him. In other words, God did not command something because it is good and something is not good because God commanded it, but rather Good is good and goodness is based off of who He is, so what is good can not change unless God changes, and the same goes for righteousness and holiness. We are told to do what is holy because God is holy, so the way to do what is holy can not change unless God's holiness changes, which means that anyone who wants to know how to do what is holy and act in line with God's holiness can look up God's instructions for how to do that in the law He gave to Moses, starting with where 1 Peter 1:16 is quoting from.

If I undergo surgery is the doctor doing something righteous to fix me up? Of course. Does that mean the surgery will have to last forever or we could not call the surgery a good and righteous thing? Of course not.

You're equivocating here. Saying that the results of a righteous action can come to an end is not the same thing as saying that the is is possible that a righteous action might no longer be a righteous action in the future. So there might be some time in the future where helping to heal people is no longer a righteous action.

The Law of Moses is part of an evolving redemption narrative. It played its role, and now it is set aside. Paul is crystal clear about this in several places:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

In all candor, how could Paul not be more clear - the Law is no longer needed, just as a graduating student no longer needs the tutor.

When you study under a tutor, the point where they are no longer needed is when you have taken their lessons to heart and act according to them. However, if after the tutor leaves you disregard everything they taught you about what to do, then then you would be missing the point of a tutor and and be showing that you need to go back under their tutelage. In other words, you can't move on to algebra by disregarding everything you were taught about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, but rather you must incorporate what you have learned in order to build upon that. The law taught us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, but we can now depend on the Spirit to teach us how to act in line with God's character instead of what was written, but that is still in accordance with what was written because God's character and the law that is based off of His character did not change between covenants. The same law is incorporated into the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). Nothing in Scripture talks about the law having an evolving role, but rather it very consistently says that God's law it is eternal. All of the prophets had the message for people to repent and turn back to obedience to the law, and Jesus was no different, and God has done nothing that He has not first revealed to the prophets (Amos 3:7).

Not if we respect Biblical precedent about such "end of the world" language gets used.

There is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul so forcefully argues (e.g. Eph 2:15): In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

There is a theme in the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, so you should be more careful not to interpret something that was against obeying man as being against obeying God. In 2 Timothy 3:16, it says that all OT Scriptures (which primarily includes God's law) are God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work, so does it make sense to you that Ephesians 2:10 says that we are made new creations is Messiah for the purpose of doing good works, and then just a few verses later that Messiah did away with his instructions for how to do good works? Rather, Ephesians 2:15 refers to man-made laws, such as mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles, which were contrary to Scripture (Leviticus 19:34).

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light


What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away” is an apocalyptic metaphor?

It is Jesus’ death on the Cross where He proclaims “It is accomplished”. Note how this dovetails perfectly with the 5:18 declaration that the Law would remain until all is accomplished. Seeing things this way allows us to honour the established tradition of metaphorical end-of-the-world imagery and to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

When Jesus said "it is accomplished" he was referring to his redemptive work, which is a redemption from lawlessness, not a redemption from the law. The main problem your interpretation is that Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in contrast with abolishing it, but you've interpreted that to mean essentially the same thing as abolishing it. Rather, to fulfill the law means to fill it with meaning or to demonstrate a full understanding of how to obey it through words or actions. After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, he then proceeded to do so six times by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. He likewise fulfilled the law by demonstrate a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 1:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:4-6). Jesus said summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love you neighbor and in Galatians 5:14, love fulfills the entire law because that is demonstrating what the law is essentially about. Furthermore, everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled entire the law, so that was not something unique that Jesus did to do away with it.

While it is possible that Jesus was using hyperbolic language, he doesn't say anything else to give the impression that God's law would shortly be done away with. Warning that those who relaxed the least of the laws or taught others to do the same would be called least in the kingdom doesn't seem appropriate if he was about to relax the entire law and teaching other to relax the law was about to become the right thing to do. Furthermore, this interact with the problem where there are numerous in instances where the law is described as eternal.

According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, and according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6, the way to tell that someone was a false prophet, even if they perform signs and wonders, is if they taught them against obeying what God had commanded, so if Jesus had been suggesting that, then it would have been a major doctrinal issue and it seems he would have provoked at least some sort of reaction to such a radical statement. While Jesus certainly accomplished much on the cross, there is still the second coming, so not all has been accomplished. I think it far is more likely that he was about to teach against what the teachers or the law were saying, so he prefaced it by saying that he was not going to undermine the law.

No one is denying that Gentiles should not be "lawless". But they never were, and are still not, under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses.

The law is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so because Gentiles are not permitted to sin (Romans 6:15), then Gentiles are not permitted to do what the law says is sin. You can't have it both ways where Gentiles are free from obeying the law but are not free to do what the law says is sin. If Gentiles were never under the jurisdiction of God's law, then they would be free to do all of the things the law says is sin, they wouldn't need a redeemer to save them from their sins, and they certainly wouldn't need Jesus to die set them free from a law that they were never under in the first place. Rather, we have not been redeemed from the law, but from lawlessness (Titus 2:4). If God had to send Jesus to die to redeem us from the law, then it would have been better if He had never commanded it in the first place. Rather, what was nailed to crosses was the crimes or transgressions of the law that they had committed, not the law itself, so they didn't have to legislate new laws every time someone was crucified, which fits perfectly with Jesus dying for the penalty of our sins in our place. We shouldn't even want to be redeemed from something that is holy, righteous, good (Romans 7:12), but rather, we should seek to delight in obeying God's law by faith as David and Paul did (Psalms 1:1-2, Romans 7:22).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1John2:4
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,248
6,240
Montreal, Quebec
✟301,985.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Holiness, righteousness, and goodness do not exist externally to God so that God is subservient to some standard of conduct outside of Him. In other words, God did not command something because it is good and something is not good because God commanded it, but rather Good is good and goodness is based off of who He is, so what is good can not change unless God changes, and the same goes for righteousness and holiness.
This is "philosophical" speculation on your part. That's fine, but the point, for those of us who vest authority in scripture and not in philosophical musings, is that Scripture clearly declares the Law of Moses has come to an end. Do you deny that this is what Paul says here:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Please set aside the sweeping philosophy for the moment and explain to the readers how these very words do not constitute a clear declaration of the "retirement" of the Law of Moses. If you do not address the details of this text, I will keep asking you to do so.

Besides, there is a severe problem of basic logic with your implied position - you basically make it impossible for God to a "good" thing that comes to an end. But that clearly cannot be, since we know God must surely be free to do good things that, once the goal has been achieved, no longer need to keep on going.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,632
4,675
Hudson
✟343,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Not according to this text, which shows that God intended the kosher food laws to be distinctive to Jews:

You are therefore to make a distinction between the clean animal and the unclean, and between the unclean bird and the clean; and you shall not make [o]yourselves detestable by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean. Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine

I am fairly confident I can find similar other texts which strongly imply, if not outright declare, that the Law of Moses was given to separate the Jew from the rest of the world.

True Israel are those who have faith in the promise (Romans 9:6-8), we have been grafted into Israel through faith in Messiah (Ephesians 2:19), and the New Covenant was only made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31), so if you are not part of Israel, then you have a problem. We have likewise become part of God's chosen people and set apart as His holy nation (1 Peter 2:9-10). The law was given to set apart God's chosen people from the world, so if you are identify as a member of God's chosen people, then you should conduct yourself accordingly.

Romans 3:31 is indeed a challenge, and I am not, at this moment, prepared to answer it. But there are quite a few texts where Paul outright declares the end of the Law of Moses, not least Ephesians 2:15 (assuming Paul wrote Ephesians). So we both have work to do to defend our respective positions.

As for Paul continuing to follow the Law, here is his explanation:

To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

Paul knew the Law no longer applied to him (a Jew), but he followed so as not to offend Jews he was trying to convert.

Paul spoke about a number of different types of laws, such as the Law of God (Romans 3:31, 7:22-25, 8:7), the Law of Sin (Romans 7:23-25), the Law of Sin and Death (Romans 8:2), the Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2), the Law of Faith (Romans 3:27), the Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:31), the Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21), and works of law (Galatians 3:10).

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

The law that we are not under has to do with sin and death no longer having dominion over us, so the law that we are not under is the law of sin and death, which is in direct contrast with the law of God:

Romans 7:21-23 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Likewise, in these verses we need to look at what law Paul was talking about not being under:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Paul said he was not free from God's law in a parallel statement with still being under Christ's law, so in verse 20, the law that he was speaking about not being under was not God's law, but the law of the Jews, which refers to their man made traditions or works of law, such as in Acts 10:28. He was saying that while he was with the Jews he followed their customs as to be more approachable to them even though he wasn't required to follow their traditions. And when he was to the Gentiles, he certainly wasn't saying that he did what the law says was sin in order to reach Gentiles, thereby undermining his message to them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,632
4,675
Hudson
✟343,092.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
This is "philosophical" speculation on your part.

If it just confuses the matter, then you can feel free to disregard my point about whether something is good because God commands it or God commands it because it is good. However, it still stands that God's commands are all in accordance with His character, which does not change.

1 Peter 1:14-16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

God commands us to do what is holy because He is holy, to do what is righteous because He is righteous, and to do what is good because He is good. His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because it is his instructions for how to have such a conduct, so anyone who wants to know how to have such a conduct can look it up in His law. As part of the New Covenant, we are still told to do what is holy, righteous, and good (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

That's fine, but the point, for those of us who vest authority in scripture and not in philosophical musings, is that Scripture clearly declares the Law of Moses has come to an end. Do you deny that this is what Paul says here:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Please set aside the sweeping philosophy for the moment and explain to the readers how these very words do not constitute a clear declaration of the "retirement" of the Law of Moses. If you do not address the details of this text, I will keep asking you to do so.

I did address this issue in the post that you replied to, but you did not interact with any of those points. Saying that we are no longer under a tutor does not mean that we are no longer required to do what the tutor taught us, just that it is no longer our instructor. The Spirit is now our instructor, which is superior to being instructed by the law, but what the Spirit instructs us to do is still in accordance with what the law instructs. The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14), the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and it is the carnal mind that refuses to submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if God says to do something and you interpret Paul as saying that we don't have to do that now, do you obey God, or do you obey Paul? I think Paul upheld God's law (Romans 3:31), he continued to live in obedience to it by faith (Acts 21:24), and that he never taught anyone against obeying it, but if you interpret him as speaking against obeying God's commands, then you make him out to be a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6 who was therefore not speaking for God and was not inspired by Him. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans checked everything Paul said against OT Scripture to make sure that what he said didn't deviate from it and Paul quoted or alluded to OT Scripture thousands of times to show that he didn't deviate from it. According to 2 Peter 3:15-17, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness, so if you think that Paul said that the God's law had ended or that he was against anyone keeping it, then you have misunderstood him.

Besides, there is a severe problem of basic logic with your implied position - you basically make it impossible for God to a "good" thing that comes to an end. But that clearly cannot be, since we know God must surely be free to do good things that, once the goal has been achieved, no longer need to keep on going.

Again, you're equivocating. I'm speaking about whether an action will always be an action that is good, not whether the effect is temporary. For example, it is always righteous to help the poor, but the poor we will always have with us, so it is an action that is always righteous, but with a result that always temporary. If what is righteous can change or come to an end, then there could be a situation in the future where it is no longer righteous to help the poor.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,096
okie
✟222,536.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Again, you're equivocating. I'm speaking about whether an action will always be an action that is good, not whether the effect is temporary. For example, it is always righteous to help the poor, but the poor we will always have with us, so it is an action that is always righteous, but with a result that always temporary. If what is righteous can change or come to an end, then there could be a situation in the future where it is no longer righteous to help the poor.
Why is it that many Christians only cry 'legalism' when their favorite
sin comes up?

Not just 'sin' ...... but righteousness too. Thank Yhwh for your post revealing righteousness Soyeong --
people are called by Yhwh,
not to go on being dogs,
but to be changed, to be healed, to be made righteous in Yeshua HaMashiach.

To be righteous. To live righteous lives. As written in and through all Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,636
61
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Agreed, but there is no command for non-Jews outside of Israel to keep Sabbath. And that's part of Israel's being set apart anyway.
And then we have Acts 15, which doesn't tell us to avoid the meat of animals that to Jews are unclean. Just blood (which according to the Jewish standard, fish blood does not count) and the meat of strangled animals.

If you enter a strange culture, how long would it take
you to learn all the rules? Months, perhaps years? It
is the same with learning God's laws. He gives us the
time we need to learn, as long as we are responsible
to keep learning and applying those laws to our lives.
Acts 15 was a place they could start. Easy to remember
and put into action in their lives.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,096
okie
✟222,536.00
Faith
Anabaptist
QUOTE"pat34lee, If you enter a strange culture, how long would it take
you to learn all the rules? Months, perhaps years? It
is the same with learning God's laws. He gives us the
time we need to learn, as long as we are responsible
to keep learning and applying those laws to our lives.
Acts 15 was a place they could start. Easy to remember
and put into action in their lives. QUOTE

Likewise, if someone comes to the usa /canada from Britain,
how long does it take
to learn which side of the road to drive on ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: pat34lee
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,636
61
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
No. Just because something is good and righteous does not mean it cannot come to an end. And more specifically, just because God is holy and righteous does not mean the Law of Moses - which God indeed instituted - cannot come to an end.

Before you move on, this one is a problem. All things end
eventually, but what did Jesus himself say about Torah?
(That is the law of Moses.)

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one
jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


I still see heaven and earth, and all has not been fulfilled.
There is still a millennial reign to come.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Peace Keeper
Upvote 0

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,636
61
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Likewise, if someone comes to the usa /canada from Britain,
how long does it take
to learn which side of the road to drive on ?

Exactly. It sounds easy, drive on the other side of the road.
But it isn't that easy in practice. It takes time to adjust.
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,248
6,240
Montreal, Quebec
✟301,985.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Before you move on, this one is a problem. All things end
eventually, but what did Jesus himself say about Torah?
(That is the law of Moses.)

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one
jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


I still see heaven and earth, and all has not been fulfilled.
There is still a millennial reign to come.
Please see post 20.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.