LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Ironhold]

Only those whom God has granted repentance to the acknowledging of the truth will repent. No one else understands spiritual things. False religions aren't the truth.

So what about people who live in areas where Christianity doesn't exist?

Are they condemned to burn simply because they drew the short straw concerning where they were born?

 

[Ironhold]

N/A. If we are saved, we will gladly do A and B.

...but if someone doesn't then they were never truly saved to begin with, eh?

Yeah. It's a classic "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It's also a classic defense for when a person who claims to be "saved" doesn't live like it. So classic, in fact, that I've heard it ad nauseum from too many people before you.

 

[Peter1000]

Your posts don't reflect an understanding of Calvin's teachings.




People who have the Holy Spirit are being taught truth and we aren't all at the same level of understanding nor are we expected to be.

Are you suggesting that I do not have the HS? At one time you went through the same process that I did to recieve the HS. Can the HS come and go at will?

In 2 paragraphs, explain Calvin's teachings about who is saved. Thanks.

 

[mmksparbud]

Because Jesus said it and you can read it in Mark 16:16.

We have had this discussion about the thief on the cross. There is no scripture that says he was baptized or was not baprized. So you can not say he was not baptized, period. No one knows for sure. You can only speculate as to whether he was or not. You can only speculate, the scriptures are silent.

Then you can not say he was baptized either! The scriptures are not entirely silent. He was a thief, when a thief is caught, he is taken to prison, there are no places for baptism in a Roman prison. He went from being a thief to prison, to the cross. It is obvious from the conversation he is just being converted, so the odds are--he was not baptized. Who cares how old he was?? John did not baptize every one that heard him. If he had been baptized,, he wouldn't have been stealing--and by all accounts, he was more than a thief, crucifixion being for the lower classes, and slaves, usually non
Roman, and most certainly for rebels and anyone being crucified had to have been given that sentence by the Roman authority. The word used to describe the thief carries with it more of a violent crime/insurrection type than for stealing a loaf of bread. (that was not a crucifixion sentence) John preached repentance---the thief obviously did not repent.
http://christianity.stackexchange.c...committed-by-the-thieves-crucified-with-jesus

To think he was baptized is beyond speculation. And Jesus did not say without baptism we are lost--He did, however, say, without faith, without belief, without repentance we are lost.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So what about people who live in areas where Christianity doesn't exist?

Are they condemned to burn simply because they drew the short straw concerning where they were born?

Christianity does a good job spreading the gospel around the world. Having 6 billion believers and missionaries helps

 

[ToBeLoved]

...but if someone doesn't then they were never truly saved to begin with, eh?

Yeah. It's a classic "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It's also a classic defense for when a person who claims to be "saved" doesn't live like it. So classic, in fact, that I've heard it ad nauseum from too many people before you.

Is that like mormons who drink coffee

 

[Rescued One]

So what about people who live in areas where Christianity doesn't exist?

Are they condemned to burn simply because they drew the short straw concerning where they were born?

God chose our places of birth. Did He choose correctly or incorrectly?

 

[Rescued One]

Are you suggesting that I do not have the HS? At one time you went through the same process that I did to recieve the HS. Can the HS come and go at will?

In 2 paragraphs, explain Calvin's teachings about who is saved. Thanks.

Your teaching is that he can come and go. My belief is that Mormonism is a sham.

John 3
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your teaching is that he can come and go. My belief is that Mormonism is a sham and that a Mormon can't give or take him.

Your right Phoebe Ann. The Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. If the Holy Spirit can go, then Jesus Christ breaks His covenant with us, which is not possible. Christ ONLY gives the Holy Spirit upon salvation as a seal of the New Covenant. No Holy Spirit, No salvation/

 

[Peter1000]

Not so fast there, Pete. The above is basically a non-answer. Because it is precisely the "faith plus works" camp. Faith must be coupled with works. Faith plus works. Any way you slice it.

JS never learned that the grace of Jesus Christ saves end-of-story, because there is no such thing found in mormonism. Instead he decided to tie three works-based heavens (with their own multiple levels within each tier) into final, "at-the-end-of-life" Mormon salvation. There's no grace in such a notion, because grace cannot "fall" into the "faith.... plus works" camp. It's completely opposite of grace. Trick question? Not really. Not when you possess the divine equipment to actually think it through first.

This is precisely what happens when a Mormon attempts to figure out Christianity when they don't truly comprehend it, in order to "force-fit" it within mormonism. Doesn't work, Peter. A round Mormon peg can never fill a square Christianity hole. The glaring gaps can never fill those empty corners, revealing the truth -- of a false peg perched in a true square hole.

Or are you admitting here that Mormon salvation depends upon the tenets of abominable Christianity?

James is famous for saying that faith without works is DEAD. If you have dead faith, what have you? If you really do not have faith, will you still be saved by grace?

Always remember that Mormonism does not fit the normal Christianity saved theology of today. Mormonism is, however, able to reconcile all salvation scriptures in the NT. Christians today can not reconcile at least 1/2 of the salvation scriptures in the NT. I have tried with you and you come up with some glib explanation that makes no sense and just pass by what the Savior says. You do not even acknowledge what the Savior says because you are so blinded by what Paul says about grace.

Jesus never used the word grace once in all of his sayings. Jesus was works bound. Jesus was endure to the end bound. Jesus was, be perfect like your Father in heaven is perfect bound. Jesus was, you will be judged according to your works bound. Jesus was, if you love me keep my commandments bound. These concepts are almost repugnant to you, all because Paul says it is by grace that we are saved, not of works, lest we boast. You tear everything else out of the NT except what Paul says about grace. Nice going. Everything is grace and nothing else matters, even if Jesus said it. Grace is a part of salvation, but not the part you think it plays.

That's why I ask the question: if Jesus (not Paul) said to do A and B in order to be saved, would you do it? Guess what your answer was? Silence. Do you revere the words of Paul over the words of Jesus?
It is such a simple concept that I'm surprised you haven't answered.

So, what is it?

 

[Peter1000]

Your right Phoebe Ann. The Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. If the Holy Spirit can go, then Jesus Christ breaks His covenant with us, which is not possible. Christ ONLY gives the Holy Spirit upon salvation as a seal of the New Covenant. No Holy Spirit, No salvation/

This is a hypothetical event: If you are saved, and have the HS, do you think the HS is going to be with you as you commit adultery with your neighbor, over and over for 5 years? Do you really think the HS will remain with you if you do evil things?

 

[Peter1000]

Your teaching is that he can come and go. My belief is that Mormonism is a sham.

John 3
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Did you do your research on Calvin's teachings?

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is a hypothetical event: If you are saved, and have the HS, do you think the HS is going to be with you as you commit adultery with your neighbor, over and over for 5 years? Do you really think the HS will remain with you if you do evil things?

Where in the Bible does it say that Christ will break His Covenant with us and take away the Holy Spirit?

You would need to prove my words wrong with scripture. Scripture clearly says the Holy Spirit is the seal of the New Covenant.

 

[Peter1000]

This gets answered countless times. The person who will be damned is he that believeth not. Your next question?

But the point is not about the person who will be damned, it is about the person who is saved.
For countless times you go to the last part of the verse and concentrate on the person who is damned and you refuse to acknowledge what Jesus says is necessary to be saved.

Jesus says you need to believe and be baptized in order to be saved.

He also says that if you don't believe you will be damned. Why did he not say, "if you don't believe and are not baptized, you will be damned?

Why did Jesus leave out baptism? It is simple. If you do not believe, why would one even think about being baptized in the name of the Father and the Son, and the HS? They would not, it is a given. Jesus did not need to mention baptism for one that does not believe.

But the point is: in order to be saved, Jesus said you need to believe and be baptized. Am I right or wrong?

Phoebe, am I right or wrong. This is not about JS, this is about what Jesus said in the bible. Am I right or wrong?

 

[mmksparbud]

But the point is not about the person who will be damned, it is about the person who is saved.
For countless times you go to the last part of the verse and concentrate on the person who is damned and you refuse to acknowledge what Jesus says is necessary to be saved.

Jesus says you need to believe and be baptized in order to be saved.

He also says that if you don't believe you will be damned. Why did he not say, "if you don't believe and are not baptized, you will be damned?

Why did Jesus leave out baptism? It is simple. If you do not believe, why would one even think about being baptized in the name of the Father and the Son, and the HS? They would not, it is a given. Jesus did not need to mention baptism for one that does not believe.

But the point is: in order to be saved, Jesus said you need to believe and be baptized. Am I right or wrong?

Phoebe, am I right or wrong. This is not about JS, this is about what Jesus said in the bible. Am I right or wrong?

Sorry, but I know several people who were baptized who not only did not believe, only got baptized for their own reasons---myself included. I had personal reasons for getting baptized, none of which had anything to do with God. Through the years, I know several people that did it for the sake of the spouse, or the children, or to get ahead in the church, or other reasons, but not because their heart was in it. When I came back to God, I was re-baptized. And as has been ststed, Jesus also said
Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Luk_7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk_8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk_18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Joh_10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus said be baptized once, faith and believe, much more frequently. If you can be, then certainly one should be baptized, but there have been times when a person could not be, and Jesus' baptism takes care of that----His covers it. And the Holy Spirit takes care of it---for they are baptized by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Peter1000]

Sorry, but I know several people who were baptized who not only did not believe, only got baptized for their own reasons---myself included. I had personal reasons for getting baptized, none of which had anything to do with God. Through the years, I know several people that did it for the sake of the spouse, or the children, or to get ahead in the church, or other reasons, but not because their heart was in it. When I came back to God, I was re-baptized. And as has been ststed, Jesus also said
Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Luk_7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk_8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk_18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Joh_10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus said be baptized once, faith and believe, much more frequently. If you can be, then certainly one should be baptized, but there have been times when a person could not be, and Jesus' baptism takes care of that----His covers it. And the Holy Spirit takes care of it---for they are baptized by the Holy Spirit.

I would like to see a scripture that says if a person isn't for some reason able to be baptized, then Jesus's baptism takes care of that. OR if for some reason they cannot be baptized, the HS takes care of that in the baptism of the Spirit. To my knowledge, I have not read a scripture like that. Is that a SDA doctrine?

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is a hypothetical event: If you are saved, and have the HS, do you think the HS is going to be with you as you commit adultery with your neighbor, over and over for 5 years? Do you really think the HS will remain with you if you do evil things?

Yup. That's why the Bible tells us not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

Read about it.

Ephesians 4:25-32
25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. 26BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27and do not give the devil an opportunity. 28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. 29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

 

[Ironhold]

God chose our places of birth. Did He choose correctly or incorrectly?

There are literally mainline Christians who have argued that anyone who was born in a time or place where Christianity wasn't is still condemned regardless.

I'll have to go back and find it, but one of the Sunday school manuals we have contains a testimony from a convert to the church were he said that this was why he converted: a mainline pastor told him that his ancestors were lost, while we told him that they were waiting to get their work done.

 

[Ironhold]

Is that like mormons who drink coffee

I'm thinking more along the lines of Jimmy Swaggert, Ed Decker, Jack Chick, and the many, many other "Good Christians" of all levels who follow their example.

 

[mmksparbud]

I would like to see a scripture that says if a person isn't for some reason able to be baptized, then Jesus's baptism takes care of that. OR if for some reason they cannot be baptized, the HS takes care of that in the baptism of the Spirit. To my knowledge, I have not read a scripture like that. Is that a SDA doctrine?

I make no claim to speak for my church.

Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I would like the scripture that says if you are not baptized, you are damned.