LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[mmksparbud]

the PARABLE of the rich man has nothing to do with baptism--did JS find baptism in this parable also??
Mormonism is full of doctrines of A MAN.

 

[withwonderingawe]

the PARABLE of the rich man has nothing to do with baptism--did JS find baptism in this parable also??
Mormonism is full of doctrines of A MAN.

Okay I have to lay this out for you. Peter asked you if Jesus told you 'you needed ordinances to be saved' would you believe him?

My commit to Peter is;
The Prophets in the Bible and Jesus himself taught that baptism was a necessary element of salvation.

Mark 16:16 " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"
1Peter 3 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
Act 2 Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You do not believe them you have rejected the word of God.

The rich man was asking Abraham to send the now dead Lazarus to his brothers to warn them and Abraham says "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

You already have the word of God and you reject it, if Jesus himself came to you ..... would you believe him??

 

[mmksparbud]

Okay I have to lay this out for you. Peter asked you if Jesus told you 'you needed ordinances to be saved' would you believe him?

My commit to Peter is;
The Prophets in the Bible and Jesus himself taught that baptism was a necessary element of salvation.

Mark 16:16 " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"
1Peter 3 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
Act 2 Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You do not believe them you have rejected the word of God.

The rich man was asking Abraham to send the now dead Lazarus to his brothers to warn them and Abraham says "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

You already have the word of God and you reject it, if Jesus himself came to you ..... would you believe him??

This question has been asked before and answered---We do what Jesus asks---and He said several things. n He said, we all agree to be baptized, but the thief was not baptized, and there are instances when the possibility of it is not there and for those times, we have His own baptism as we have His death to cover us. He alone is the only proxy we have---no one else can be baptized for us, no one else can die for our sins, it is Jesus that saves, not the ceremony. He also said repent, believe, endure far more often than He said be baptized.
Mat_10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Luk_7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk_18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh_10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


We do not reject the word of God---we accept it and believe it---what we reject is the writings of JS--they are not biblical. It is you who reject the word of God and claim it is corrupted and only JS has the truth.

 

[withwonderingawe]

oh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Then why don't you believe him when he says ;
Mark 16:16 " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"

 

[mmksparbud]

And who says we don't??? It is you that insists that without it we are lost---I just quoted several verses that say other things save also----why don't you believe them??? The thief was not baptized--period---why don't you believe that?? Not one verse says if you are not baptized you will be lost, but there are verses that say without faith, without believe, without repentance, you are lost---why don't you believe that??----because you place the writings of JS over the bible and what he says is what you believe, not what the bible says.

 

[Peter1000]

And who says we don't??? It is you that insists that without it we are lost---I just quoted several verses that say other things save also----why don't you believe them??? The thief was not baptized--period---why don't you believe that?? Not one verse says if you are not baptized you will be lost, but there are verses that say without faith, without believe, without repentance, you are lost---why don't you believe that??----because you place the writings of JS over the bible and what he says is what you believe, not what the bible says.

Because Jesus said it and you can read it in Mark 16:16.

We have had this discussion about the thief on the cross. There is no scripture that says he was baptized or was not baprized. So you can not say he was not baptized, period. No one knows for sure. You can only speculate as to whether he was or not. You can only speculate, the scriptures are silent.

 

[Peter1000]

Peter.

We all know Calvinists are "faith alone". Even Calvinists know they are "faith alone". What happens later in the "Finer Points" conference room is irrelevant after which of the two camps any "ism" you can name has been established. (The LDS owns one of those conference rooms too, btw.)

Your overreaching still does not answer why JS settled on a salvation plan that already existed within CHRISTIANITY before he claimed God told him we were all "abominations" for believing either "faith alone" and "faith plus works". Why does all of mormonism follow a "Christian abomination creed" point on salvation?

It's ALL by God's plan. Please stop twaddling. It's been a very long day.

The creeds were mostly an abomination to God, because they get His nature all wrong.

Joseph was told that the creeds were an abomination, but he was forbidden to join any sect. Then he was taught by the Savior and by the HS and by angels sent to him for the purpose of restoring the true church of Jesus Christ and the proper ordinances needed for salvation. He was taught that a HS lead belief was the beginning, not the end. He was taught that faith in Jesus lead to repentence and to baptism and the reception of the gift of the HS as a permanent companion to lead and guide you in all truth. He was taught that as a new person, now clean and armed with faith, would love to do the works of Christ, and bring in fruit fit for the kingdom of God. He was taught that one has to endure to the end, and after all that, he learned that it is finally by the grace Jesus Christ that we are saved. So if this knowledge happens to fall into the "faith + works" camp, so be it. The NT is full of the doctrines of salvation that JS learned.

All of Mormonism does not follow a "Christian abomination creed". JS was taught first hand what the true way to salvation is. If it so happens to look somewhat like the "faith + works" camp, it is because Christians who believe in this camp are not far away from the truth.

 

[Peter1000]

That is not the question I asked of you. Please answer the question.

OK, I answered your question, sorry it took me a while.

So if Jesus told you to do A and B in order to be saved, would you do it?

 

[Peter1000]

Yes, well, He never did tell the thief on the cross to get down off that cross and go get baptized. And don't even bother with that ridiculous story that he was baptized before he was crucified!! He was in jail, for stealing, there were no bath tubs in Roman prisons.

How long was he in prison before he was killed?

 

[fatboys]

How long was he in prison before he was killed?

Wasn't John going around baptizing

 

[Peter1000]

Yes, well, He never did tell the thief on the cross to get down off that cross and go get baptized. And don't even bother with that ridiculous story that he was baptized before he was crucified!! He was in jail, for stealing, there were no bath tubs in Roman prisons.

How old was he when he went into prison?

 

[fatboys]

Although I find it interesting as to whether or not he was baptized not everyone that goes to paradise is baptized. If you lived a good life but had never heard of Jesus you would go there. If you repented from you sins you would go there

 

[Rescued One]

Then why don't you believe him when he says ;
Mark 16:16 " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"

This gets answered countless times. The person who will be damned is he that believeth not. Your next question?

 

[Rescued One]

Although I find it interesting as to whether or not he was baptized not everyone that goes to paradise is baptized. If you lived a good life but had never heard of Jesus you would go there. If you repented from you sins you would go there

Only those whom God has granted repentance to the acknowledging of the truth will repent. No one else understands spiritual things. False religions aren't the truth.

 

[Rescued One]

OK, I answered your question, sorry it took me a while.

So if Jesus told you to do A and B in order to be saved, would you do it?

N/A. If we are saved, we will gladly do A and B.

 

[Rescued One]

Have you forgot the Calvinists. They believe that God chooses who will be saved and you don't even know whether you have been chosen or not. It does not matter whether you are good or evil. God chooses and you don't have a say. It is by His good wishes only. This is a 3rd camp. There are more. But what you have to realize is that each camp breaks down into myriad of isms that all have their own rules and doctrines, all supposedly straight out of the bible. It amounts to spiritual chaos.

You don't know what Calvin taught. And the Bible doesn't cause chaos.

 

[Peter1000]

Wasn't John going around baptizing

I don't know, we have to wait until "mmksparbud" tells us how old the thief was when he entered prison? If he was 1 years old, then I would suspect he was not baptized yet. If he was 20 years or older, then there is at least a decent chance he went to John the Baptist or one of Jesus's disciples and was baptized. But we really have to wait until we find out how old he was when he went to prison.

 

[Peter1000]

You don't know what Calvin taught. And the Bible doesn't cause chaos.

Of course we do, go online and find his writings.

I will listen to you and say, the bible does not cause spiritual chaos, people's interpretations of the bible cause spiritual chaos.

 

[tickingclocker]

....JS was taught first hand what the true way to salvation is. If it so happens to look somewhat like the "faith + works" camp, it is because Christians who believe in this camp are not far away from the truth.

Not so fast there, Pete. The above is basically a non-answer. Because it is precisely the "faith plus works" camp. Faith must be coupled with works. Faith plus works. Any way you slice it.

JS never learned that the grace of Jesus Christ saves end-of-story, because there is no such thing found in mormonism. Instead he decided to tie three works-based heavens (with their own multiple levels within each tier) into final, "at-the-end-of-life" Mormon salvation. There's no grace in such a notion, because grace cannot "fall" into the "faith.... plus works" camp. It's completely opposite of grace. Trick question? Not really. Not when you possess the divine equipment to actually think it through first.

This is precisely what happens when a Mormon attempts to figure out Christianity when they don't truly comprehend it, in order to "force-fit" it within mormonism. Doesn't work, Peter. A round Mormon peg can never fill a square Christianity hole. The glaring gaps can never fill those empty corners, revealing the truth -- of a false peg perched in a true square hole.

Or are you admitting here that Mormon salvation depends upon the tenets of abominable Christianity?

 

[Rescued One]

Of course we do, go online and find his writings.

Your posts don't reflect an understanding of Calvin's teachings.

I will listen to you and say, the bible does not cause spiritual chaos, people's interpretations of the bible cause spiritual chaos.

People who have the Holy Spirit are being taught truth and we aren't all at the same level of understanding nor are we expected to be.