Hell.....

[Optimax]

Consider why there would be a hell.

Goes back to Genesis, as everything does. Genesis means beginnings.

Adam chose the devil's words, "you won't really die" over what God said "you shall surely die".

By doing so Adam chose the devil as his spiritual lord.

Adam received the very nature of the devil into his spirit.

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross made a way fro man to be reconciled to God and at the same time have his spirit recreated without that nature of the devil.

Better yet, the Holy Spirit "moved in" and dwells in the spirit of the born again/saved person (Rom 10:9).

A person that refuses what Jesus did for them including going to hell for them so they do not have to go.

That person who dies physically, never having been saved, has that nature of the devil in their spirit.

Scripture tells us that hell was not made originally for man but for the devil and his fallen angels.

However when a person dies with that nature in them they have chosen for eternity who their spiritual lord is.

Therefore they suffer the same fate as their spiritual lord the devil.

Whereas a person that made Jesus their Lord has also chosen for eternity who their Spiritual Lord is and spends eternity with Him.

Hell and those in it are moved to the lake of fire.

Hell and the lake are very real and Scripture is very clear about who it is for and far how long.

Hell and the lake are for the devil and his fallen angels and for those who refused God's remedy for what Adam did.

God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, angels (good and bad), demons, evil spirits and mankind are all spirits.

A spirit, once it comes into being is forever and must go to the place it chose.

 

[Eryk]

What do you mean with 'real place'? Must it really be a material realm? Is heaven a material realm inhabited by God?

It follows from the resurrection of the body. A body exists in a place. In Christian teaching, humanity is both material and immaterial, always. As for God in heaven, he is not material, but Jesus is material in his humanity and being with Jesus is the definition of heaven.

 

[Optimax]

Heaven is a temporary place.

The current heaven and earth will be melted with "fervent fire" and God makes a new heaven and earth that those who are saved/born again (rom 10:9) will call home forever. By the way the new earth has no seas.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Just like the trinity is articulated?

The trinity has massive evidence in scripture, but could the same be said for this idea that the lake of fire is the presence of God? I believe this lake's job is to get one out of God's presence; to extinguish their existence before Him. In other words, the second death.

 

[topcare]

What do you mean with 'real place'? Must it really be a material realm? Is heaven a material realm inhabited by God?

I do believe it is a real place just like Hell is a real place, just because we can't see it does not mean it doesn't exist. I know the in thing is to now say Hell doesn't exist etc but I was brought up with that belief and in the face of people saying Hell doesn't exist I still believe it does.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I do believe it is a real place just like Hell is a real place, just because we can't see it does not mean it doesn't exist. I know the in thing is to now say Hell doesn't exist etc but I was brought up with that belief and in the face of people saying Hell doesn't exist I still believe it does.

I also believe both hell and heaven are real places. I doubt though that they exist in a temporal or spatial sense that we can properly comprehend.

 

[Ronald]

Eternal is an English word translated from aion or aionios, which means age(s), generation(s), lifetime(s), epoch, but most of the time it is applied to our temporal realm, which is not everlasting. Even the word everlasting, really means age-lasting or age-during. When aionios is applied to God, His domain and our salvation, it is never ending. But things like generations, lifetimes, ages, will come to an end. If Hell, which is not Hades, but in fact the Lake of Fire is more of an event which occurs on Judgment Day, and it is part of the earth, meaning that it burns real fire (which is accompanied by brimstone - part of volcanic activity), is not symbolic or some spiritual place, then it will also pass away. The Bible says "all former things will pass away", meaning the first heaven and the first earth will pass away. If all former things pass away, as with pain and suffering, sin and evil, then the pain and suffering in Hell will pass away. Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire as well ... and destroyed. Destroy means to put an end to. There can't be an indestructible destruction that goes on infinitely or and imperishable perishing. Paper burns in fire and that's it. People will be thrown into this great furnace, burn and be destroyed. Why would God sustain billions of souls in torment infinitely? How would that glorify Him? And the knowledge of people suffering in such place could not be part of our heavenly joy. So what, He would just erase that knowledge of people we know in Hell and just have it for Himself? No, I think Hell is temporal, the church got it wrong as being eternal and that's a big matzo ball but hey it's my opinion. And Satan and his demons are thrown in there to be destroyed _ not infinitely, but literally destroyed. You have to ask, why sustain their existence? After the Millennial Kingdom, they are released out of the Abyss (another part of Hades), then they tempt man once again and then they are finished. There are quite a lot of questions about justice here. Where in scripture does God show us justice for eternal torment? All the stories and the moral messages about justice reflect temporal punishments.
Does eighty years worth of sinning warrant billions of years of punishment? No, not even Hitler deserves that. YLT is a Bible version that uses the correct literal term for aion or aionios, age-lasting or age-during.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hell is the presence of God, this is why some who believe will have their works burned . because God is a consuming fire.

Eternal is an English word translated from aion or aionios, which means age(s), generation(s), lifetime(s), epoch, but most of the time it is applied to our temporal realm, which is not everlasting. Even the word everlasting, really means age-lasting or age-during.
When aionios is applied to God, His domain and our salvation, it is never ending. But things like generations, lifetimes, ages, will come to an end........

Yes, that is how I view those words.

I find Revelation 14:10 fascinating.
You and others might find this spirit led commentary of that verse interesting:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#7

Reve 14:10
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,......................

TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB

The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever
(Greek:.... unto the ages of the ages .....- see Part One of this series -'Just What Do You Mean ... ETERNITY!')" (Rev. 20:10).

Notice please, in both instances, the subjects are tormented with fire and brimstone, and we have previously established what the fire and brimstone are. But Rev. 14:10 sheds further light, those are also tormented by and through another agency, which in reality sums up and constitutes the fire and brimstone, and that agency is THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB and the holy angels, or messengers. What an amazing divine paradox! The Lamb - precious embodiment of the very character of innocence, patience, meekness, gentleness, holiness, sacrifice, and redemption - being made TORMENT to men for whom He died! The very thought seems incongruous.

You see, dear ones, IT IS NOT THE NATURE of a lamb to torture anyone. It is simply not in the nature of the lamb to want to hurt in any way. Really! What could a lamb do to torture anyone? It has no capability for such a thing. And so it is with the LAMB OF GOD! The Lamb of God has no desire, no ability to inflict torture in any way - His desire is entirely redemptive - that men might have life and have it more abundantly! I cannot imagine One with the nature of a lamb packing poor lost souls like brick into a kiln, standing there blowing the fires of hell through them for ever. Such a grotesque representation charges the blessed Redeemer with crimes more heartless than those of Adoph Eichmann.

Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment.



.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, that is how I view those words.

I find Revelation 14:10 fascinating.
You and others might find this spirit led commentary of that verse interesting:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#7

Reve 14:10
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,......................

TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB

The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever
(Greek:.... unto the ages of the ages .....- see Part One of this series -'Just What Do You Mean ... ETERNITY!')" (Rev. 20:10).

Notice please, in both instances, the subjects are tormented with fire and brimstone, and we have previously established what the fire and brimstone are. But Rev. 14:10 sheds further light, those are also tormented by and through another agency, which in reality sums up and constitutes the fire and brimstone, and that agency is THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB and the holy angels, or messengers. What an amazing divine paradox! The Lamb - precious embodiment of the very character of innocence, patience, meekness, gentleness, holiness, sacrifice, and redemption - being made TORMENT to men for whom He died! The very thought seems incongruous.

You see, dear ones, IT IS NOT THE NATURE of a lamb to torture anyone. It is simply not in the nature of the lamb to want to hurt in any way. Really! What could a lamb do to torture anyone? It has no capability for such a thing. And so it is with the LAMB OF GOD! The Lamb of God has no desire, no ability to inflict torture in any way - His desire is entirely redemptive - that men might have life and have it more abundantly! I cannot imagine One with the nature of a lamb packing poor lost souls like brick into a kiln, standing there blowing the fires of hell through them for ever. Such a grotesque representation charges the blessed Redeemer with crimes more heartless than those of Adoph Eichmann.

Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment.



.

The torment comes from the sin that is being purified out of them. It's kind of like with us, God purifies us and that process sometimes causes torment when we're being unmerciful when he's being merciful to us. It's a matter of metaphysics, not so much intent.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hell is the presence of God, this is why some who believe will have their works burned . because God is a consuming fire.

I agree, except I don't think that believers pass through Hell, and I would add the word "unmitigated" (presence of God).

 

[miamited]

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

Hi topcare,

I have been convicted for quite some time now that the torment Jesus spoke of being present eternally in hell is likely misunderstood as to its source.

I read questions and statements on these boards quite often that God somehow isn't fair or just if He torments unrepentant sinners for all eternity. I don't believe that God is the source of the torment. According to the Scriptures, most notably the words of Jesus accounted in the gospels and the last couple of chapters of the Revelation, there is coming a time when God is going to put eternal separation between His children and all others. Those living with God will have all of their needs met and be satisfied with the life that they have. They will enjoy peace and love with both God and all the other people that God has set in that place.

All others will live an eternal existence where their needs are not met. Mainly because their needs will be based in greed, lust, power, etc. It will be an eternal existence where the unrepentant sinner will live with all the other unrepentant sinners. But not only that, it will also be an eternal existence living with demonic angels. So, I have long been convicted that God really has very little to do with the eternal torment, other than He will be the one to have thrown all of them together in the pit, but the torment will actually be the daily life that such an existence will likely be like. Everything will be a struggle. No one will be satisfied. There will not be any peace or love for one another. There will not be God or any hope of the promise of God.

Now, don't misunderstand. God will still exist, of course. But, He won't be involved with those living in the pit of unrepentant sinners and demonic angels. It's kind of like God is going to say, "Ok! You guys don't want me around, fine! Consider me outta here! You guys are on your own." And the existence of living without God and without hope and with all the wicked, deceitful, lying, murderous, thieves and demonic angels will be an existence of eternal torment.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Leevo]

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

It is real. 100%

 

[sculleywr]

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

Well, the statement that it is both is probably most accurate. There is a separation between those who love God and those who do not love God. Abraham even said that there was a gulf set between the rich man and those in his bosom (which was the Jewish way to represent Paradise).

The problem comes when we try to implement created dimensions in a place that does not have these dimensions as we know them. Can you imagine an existence apart from the linear progression of time that you experience on this earth? Would such an existence even have the planes of X, Y, and Z in space? What does a gulf look like in this existence? What do our bodies look like in a place without time?

We cannot truly comprehend these things using the human senses, and so they are explained in limited form using terms we can understand. Likely, the gulf that cannot be crossed is the fact that, without time, there can be no change, because change is dependent on the existence of time. This is also why one can say that God never changes, even though the expression of God that we see in time is extremely dynamic, ranging the course of emotions from wrath to joy and everything in between. It could be said that He is all of these things in their purest, unperverted form. We have a sort of baseline with the existence of the human emotions, which are in the image of God's, but they are not a perfect representation of God's emotions.

"We see through a glass dimly", Paul says. So when we enter the realm of eternity, we are no longer limited by time.

It is easy to see, from this eschatology, how a huge shift in soteriology becomes necessary. If the pain of hades is caused not by a contractual, juridical status, but by one's relationship with God, then how could five minutes possibly prepare a person to encounter God? Not to say that death bed professions are meaningless. But there is a reason they are so rare. If you think of God's statements in portrayals of the judgment, you'll notice that He doesn't refer to a contract, especially toward the end of Matthew. He shows us how the judgment goes, and it mirrors his answer to the lawyer prior to the Good Samaritan parable: love God and neighbor. And if we truly love our neighbor, we do so only by seeing Christ in them, no matter how sinful they might be.

I love how this is portrayed in the songs "Can Anybody Hear Her" and "Stained Glass Masquerade" by Casting Crowns. In the end, Christ isn't going to mention a decision you made in words alone. He's going to demonstrate how you made your decision.

This is how works and faith are interwoven. They are like electricity and magnetism. Where one is, you will always find the other. Drop a magnet down a copper pipe and it will slow down, creating electricity. Run electricity through a metal plate and it will become a magnet. In the same way, when we apply works, God grants us faith, faith by which we can do more works. In this way, we become colaborers with Christ, partaking in the power by which we could only ever find the truest salvation. Not heaven or hell. Not rewards or punishment. True salvation is in becoming the spitting image of Jesus Christ in our souls and minds, so that He might glorify our bodies, our souls, and our minds. We become by grace what Christ is by nature.

And what truer salvation is there than that? I don't like to focus on the pain and fear of hell, because there should be a greater fear in our hearts. If we feared this more than all else, then hell wouldn't even enter to control our thoughts. What we should fear is anything which separates us from Christ. Anything which prevents us and others from becoming like Christ.

 

[SnowyMacie]

So I have seen lately that Hell is getting redefined to not really be a place of torment but just the fact that since God is everywhere than it will be awful for non Christians and to them that will be Hell. I was surprised to learn that the idea of Hell that many Christians know has not always existed. I was taught that Hell was a real place so is it real or just a state of mind?

It's really not getting redefined, that's somewhat what the Eastern Orthodox church has been teaching for thousands of years, and it's seeping into Western denominations. Personally, I have come to understand sin, God's judgement, and Hell from a more Eastern perspective. Like Sculle said, the answer that is most accurate is that it is both.

 

[Razare]

There are 2 hells. Hell is really a bad word. It's like using sloppy English slang, because it's imprecise. It gives the impression there is 1 hell, but there are 2.

Sheol (Hades in Greek language) - Place of the dead, in the bowels of the Earth, contains a chamber for torment, but has places in it that are not torment

Eternal Fire (Lake of Fire) / (Gehenna in Greek language) - This place is not implemented yet. It exists in the future, after Christ reigns for 1,000 years, and all the dead are judged before Christ's white throne. "And I saw the books opened..." in Revelation. This judgement that casts those into the lake of fire, is the eternal hell. Hades and Death are both thrown into the lake of fire, meaning Sheol and Dying are done away with by God's judgement.

These places are real, but Sheol is in a spiritual dimension. When there are angels, we don't see them. This same plane is where Sheol is. Bodies don't go to Sheol spiritually because bodies are not spirits, they just go into the dirt and rot. However, the spirit and the part of the soul attached to the spirit, go into the spiritual Sheol, into the bowels of the Earth upon death.

Unless you are a Christian, because Christians will go to heaven upon death, one day to be raised from the dead back into a physical body.

 

[topcare]

It's really not getting redefined

I disagree, I see it getting redefined quite a bit. At least on here it does and Christ does not say it is some ethereal place or a state of mid but a real place

Matt 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

Matt 5:22

But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

I still do believe in a real Hell were the wicked go

 

[SnowyMacie]

I disagree, I see it getting redefined quite a bit. At least on here it does and Christ does not say it is some ethereal place or a state of mid but a real place

Matt 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

Matt 5:22

But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

I still do believe in a real Hell were the wicked go

The word that gets translated to Hell in the gospels is "Gehenna", which is a literal place, a valley outside of Old Jerusalem.

 

[Goatee]

God doesn't choose hell for us. We choose it ourselves.

Hell is exactly that, 'HELL!' Its not meant to be a place to put your feet up and watch your fav TV program or wine and dine etc etc! Its there because 'you' chose to go there.

Heaven is eternal happiness with God. Hell is the opposite.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

My individual interpretation only. Your mileage may vary.

I think "real" and "literal" are two different things. My understanding of reading Scripture is that hell is a real place, but probably not a literal lake of fire. It's just that "spiritual things are spiritually discerned," and being on fire forever was the most terrifying imagery human beings could understand. If the Bible authors, inspired though they were, attempted to describe what hell is really like, we couldn't grasp it. It's too much for our understanding, and actually so much *worse* than being on fire forever. It was described that way to impress upon us that we do NOT want to be there.

And I agree with the above poster who said that God doesn't "put" anyone in hell. For those who don't love and worship God, and don't want to follow Him, Heaven would be an even worse torment than hell.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Fire is almost certainly a metaphor, but if Jesus has to use "eternal fire" to describe what Hell is like, then it's obviously terrifying.