LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

[mmksparbud]

...yet the OP declares that our lack of crosses is in and of itself enough to make us enemies of mainline Christianity.

I think you can see the disconnect here.

Why didn't you answer the question I asked on that post?? Does wearing the Mormon undergarments make you Mormon?
Do you have to wear the undergarments??

 

[Ironhold]

Out of spite

What makes you so sure it was spite?

Could it be that something you said did, legitimately upset her?

You see, far too many "Good Christians" and others basically treat us like we're mentally defective for being members of the church or otherwise see us as sub-human. A lot of us are bombarded on a constant basis by material that claims to show the "truth" but doesn't; much of it is distorted or even outright false, but because it comes from a source the individual has been deceived into believing that they can trust they place it ahead of us when it comes to talking about the church, even when we show unimpeachable sources. For every individual who claims to be doing it because they "love" us, you've got a jackanapes who is doing it because they just want to rub our faces in it.

After a while, that kind of gets to people.

What you said may well have been the last straw for her, leading her to completely misinterpret your intentions.

Her mother made me out to be very intolerant and that what I was saying was all lies and her daughter has made no attempt to contact me.

Could it be that the material you transmitted was, indeed, full of false material?

Did you stop to check the arguments?

One thing--0if you go to the official Mormon website, you won't get to find out all this stuff that easily. They don't discuss things very deeply, they sound like most Christian sites, it takes digging into their Book of Mormon, their Doctrines and Covenants and other books where you find out this stuff.

...yet if a person wishes to honestly study the church, they'll do that very same digging.

In all seriousness, most critics of the church I've encountered - including more than a few "ordained" ministers who proudly waved their ordinations and/or Bible school diplomas - would be laughed out of secular academia for their absolute failure to conduct proper research. I put more research into a single column about a particular type of fighter jet than some people I've encountered have put into their entire careers ranting against the church; one minister even literally told me that he hadn't read anything church-related since 1987! (As you can imagine, the fact that all of his material was 25+ years old meant that no one took him seriously, leaving him to scratch his head in puzzlement.)

But You can read the Book of Mormon on line ---it is about as long as the bible I think!!!!

Not even close.

You can get the other books also. But I found I really do not like to read their literature, it makes me cringe.

Welcome to the wonderful world of due diligence in research.

 

[Ironhold]

Why didn't you answer the question I asked on that post??

Why not address the point I raised about the disconnect between what you're saying and what the OP is saying?

Does wearing the Mormon undergarments make you Mormon?

Nope.

The faith in God and the upright lifestyle required to merit a temple recommend in the first place are what define a person.

Do you have to wear the undergarments??

That's on the individual to decide.

In fact, it's actually quite common for athletes, military service members deployed into combat zones, and others to not wear the garment because they can't guarantee that it'll withstand what they're up to. (In fact, some military commandos don't wear any sort of undergarment underneath their uniforms, due to the belief that they'll collect so much sweat and grime during the course of an op[eration] that it'll lead to jock itch and other hygiene issues. It's a surprisingly common practice in the US, such that it was brought up when Jesse Ventura was elected governor [Ventura being a former NAVY SEAL] and I recall hearing something about individual commandos in the UK adopting the practice as well.)

 

[Goatee]

It looks to me that maybe, the mormons who are posting on here have never seen the hidden facts about their denomination? To the mormons on here:

The facts i mentioned through that link, are you saying that they are 'not' part of Mormonism?

Are you saying that nothing on this list is true:

Mormon Beliefs documented
Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers--not anti-Mormon writers:

1. Book of Mormon
   1. The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).
2. Devil, the
   1. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
   2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
3. God
   1. God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith,Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
   2. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans . . . ," (D&C 130:22).
4. God, becoming a god
   1. After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
   2. "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20).
5. God, many gods
   1. There are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
   2. "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light," (Book of Abraham 4:3).
6. God, mother goddess
   1. There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
   2. God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
7. God, Trinity
   1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
8. Heaven
   1. There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).
9. Holy Ghost, the
   1. The Holy Ghost is a male personage (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118, Journal of Discources, vol. 5, p. 179).
10. Jesus
    1. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
    2. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
    3. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh . . . " (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).
11. Joseph Smith
    1. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
12. Pre-existence
    1. We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).
    2. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
    3. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
13. Salvation
    1. "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
    2. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
    3. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
    4. Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).
    5. There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
    6. "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).
    7. "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements--'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
    8. "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts," (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
    9. "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).
14. Trinity, the
    1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

Mormon beliefs are not in line with Biblical truth because they teach things that are opposed to the Word of God. It is clear that Mormonism is not Christian.

 

[mmksparbud]

What makes you so sure it was spite?

I know so---I know the woman, known her for over 40 years---take too long to explain---definitely out of spite.
Nothing I said was false. And I didn't even get into most of the stuff I've discovered. Just about 2-3 things. I was fooled by her talk of being a Christian, and thought she had changed, and forgot what she was really like. It came to the surface. As a Christian, she should have come to me, not gone directly to her. It is what I would have done. I'm not even the girls mother, but I would never have shown her something that would just get her angry and upset---what for?? I wouldn't want to hurt her like that. I didn't even tell her what her dad really thought about her becoming Mormon and that he did not want the baptism for the dead thing---why upset her, it's not going to make one bit of difference for him anyway. I let my guard down. While praying about it , Joseph and his brothers came to mind, where Joseph tells his brothers---"You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good"--so I'll see what happens.
And I do my research. I always try to go to the official websites of whatever I want to find out---not to the "anti- sites"--However, the anti sites can prove useful as they give you material to research that you might not even think about. What Carm. wrote about your believes is not false. It has taken me a long time to dig all this stuff out, you guys are not upfront about most of it.
No, I know the BOM is not really as long as the bible---just seems like it!!

 

[fat wee robin]

I'm not sure what to believe about that now, as several Mormons in this thread have told me that it is not true, while another has seemingly come to the defense of this idea. So it's probably something that some believe and some do not, without it being a matter of officially-promulgated LDS doctrine.

I think you will find that their 'theology' is ever changing, and has changed recently , at least since it was explained to me three years ago, by Mormon missionaries in the U.K.

There is nowhere better, to hide a big lie , than between two truths .

 

[Super14LDS]

I'm not sure what to believe about that now, as several Mormons in this thread have told me that it is not true, while another has seemingly come to the defense of this idea. So it's probably something that some believe and some do not, without it being a matter of officially-promulgated LDS doctrine.

Were you responding to a previous post?

 

[fat wee robin]

We believe they have always existed

Well you don't believe what your leaders do , and you seem to be unaware how many
changes have taken place , in less than two hundred years .
C.A.R.M in a short article sums up the différences .Two different Jesus' . Take your pick
but be careful , one is a creation of a False Prophet .

 

[Ironhold]

It looks to me that maybe, the mormons who are posting on here have never seen the hidden facts about their denomination? To the mormons on here:

Quick primer:

1. Critics of the church love to deceive people by presenting official-sounding material instead of official material. This is because the official-sounding material hasn't always gone through the process of ensuring its doctrinal accuracy, and so can contain material that isn't in line with the church's teachings.

2. Critics of the church can and will deceive audiences by wrenching material out of context, with some going so far as to outright doctor citations in the process.

3. Pursuant to the above, it falls on everyone to investigate those sources cited by critics.

I say this as a lot of the sources in the list you gave are official-sounding, not official. For example, critics of the church love to cite the original 1950s edition of "Mormon Doctrine" because it contains McConkie's own personal theology in places instead of the church's theology, giving them a gold mine of unorthodox theology in a work that sounds like it's an actual publication. Most actual members of the church, in contrast, will reference the newest edition they can get their hands on because the later editions were revised to eliminate most of the nonsense.

The facts i mentioned through that link, are you saying that they are 'not' part of Mormonism?

Are you saying that nothing on this list is true:

The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).

Actual quote:

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

So already, the list is wrong in that it's attempting to paraphrase instead of going for the full statement.

The original statement is Joseph Smith advocating the Book of Mormon to the members of the church, a statement that survives in as much a historical concept as a theological one. It's not that the church is directly pitting one work against the other; rather, it's recording what Joseph Smith himself said once upon a time.

Devil, theThe Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
GodGod used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith,Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).

This is a common bloody shirt that critics of the church use, and it's usually presented in the most sensational fashion possible.

Source

God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith[1998], 335).

source

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give His life for us, and take upon Himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. Under his proposal, our purpose in coming to earth would have been frustrated (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay[2003], 207).

Everyone who is, was, and ever will be exists as the spirit offspring of Heavenly Father himself. This includes Jesus, who is our Elder Brother, and Satan, who is another child.

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans . . . ," (D&C 130:22).

full verse:

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

This teaching shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, as the Bible itself contains a list of scripture that reference Heavenly Father and Jesus as having bodies of a physical nature.

After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).

Gospel Principles manual lesson #47: exaltation

I'd suggest you take a few to read this chapter, and then we'll get back to this topic.

God, mother goddessThere is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

While the theology does posit a Heavenly Mother behind the scenes, the two works you cite are not official; Talmage's works are supplemental, and I've already explained the issues with "Mormon Doctrine".

The truth of the matter is, most critics of the church make a bigger deal of it than we do.

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

This is recorded right in the First Vision, with Heavenly Father and Jesus appearing both at the same time in front of Joseph Smith. It's not "hidden" or anything else like that, but out in the open.

We've actually gone several rounds on various threads here on this board about the matter, and I myself have been debating the point for over a decade.

If anything, one of the strongest supports for this is John 17 and the Intercessory Prayer: Jesus is praying that his followers will literally know the same sort of unity that he and Heavenly Father know, something that by definition rules out the three-in-one concept of the Trinity.

Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).

It's the wee hours where I am, and so for this one I'll leave you with the relevant Gospel Principles chapter explaining matters.

The Holy Ghost is a male personage (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118, Journal of Discources, vol. 5, p. 179).

Neither work has official weight.

"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

Did not Jesus eat a meal in front of the disciples and invite them to touch his wounds?

The Bible is quite clear on that.

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

This is another bloody shirt.

If you read the full context, you'll see that Young is basically snapping off an answer to a debate that was going on among some of the members as a means of getting them to set aside what he thought of as a piddling matter not worthy of the time and effort being put into debating it.

It's among the many items in the JoD that were not given the official weight of doctrine, and so has no actual bearing.

"Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh . . . " (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).

See above.

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).

Remember what I said about the first edition of the work containing McConkie's own personal beliefs in lieu of actual theology?

Yeah.

We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).

Also referenced above.

The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).

Jesus is, indeed, the Firstborn Son of Heavenly Father.

The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).

It's a common misconception both within and outside of the church that Satan was #2, but this has no support.

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).

While the work is unofficial, the simple truth of the matter is that one doesn't have to look far to see people who have given in to what pivotal Lutheran theologian Deitrich Bonhoeffer refers to as "cheap grace", the notion that one is under no obligation of discipleship once they are "saved". Basically, a person who puts forth "cheap grace" holds that once they make the needed confession of faith, they've got a one-way ticket to Heaven and so that's all they need. This all too often results in everything from backsliding to sloth to outright wickedness in God's name, as they feel that whatever they do is fine with God and so they don't stop to consider their actions.

I've actually seen pamphlets and tracts which literally declare that reciting a prayer at the end of the work is all one needs to be saved. Just utter a few words and you've got a reserved seat in Heaven for when you die. Nothing whatsoever about how, oh by the way, someone who does believe needs to live in such a fashion that their actions back their faith up like we read about in the Epistle of James.

A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).

See above.

Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).

Most critics follow this up by arguing that we teach "blood atonement", the theology which supposedly states that people who are guilty of certain sins must be executed so that they can be saved.

In reality, for all intents and purposes this all goes back to a single sermon in which Brigham Young stated, to paraphrase, "If people understood the eternal consequences of such sins as murder and adultery, they'd volunteer to be executed as part of the penance process rather than die of old age and face God in their sins." It was his way of making a point, not an actual advocacy of religiously-enforced capital punishment.

Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).

The church holds rather devoutly to the Epistle of James, with its warning that faith is dead if a person's actions don't back it up.

There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).

Eh?

"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).

And the offensive part of this sentiment is...?

"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements--'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts," (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

Just as Bonhoeffer spoke of "cheap grace", he also spoke of "costly grace", the kind of grace that requires a person to submit to God's will and carrying the burden of being a Christian. In essence, one can't be a good Christian if they just sit on the couch all day and expect to be saved because they said a prayer some years ago. Instead, their daily walk with Christ must reflect their faith through concrete lifestyle choices and actions that back up their professed beliefs.

 

[Ironhold]

Okay - something with the way Christian Forums is set up means that I can't track down the coding error that led to my post being fouled like it is; instead of displaying the actual code in the post when I go to edit it, all I get is the after-effects of the code.

Whatever links don't go through, let me know and I'll re-post them.

 

[fat wee robin]

You can buy into that nonsense but I don't see that as logical especially according to the Bible maybe an alien religion.

Do you know what IRONY is - he's being Ironic ?

 

[Goatee]

Changes, and many at that in mormon scripture:

http://mit.irr.org/changes-latter-day-scripture

 

[fat wee robin]

But wasn't smith a 'very' sinful man too? Should we even trust his words? The things he got up to were not very 'Holy' now were they?

I found this to interesting as it gives us a background the the founder Joseph Smith who, was only one of the many false prophets of the 19th Century .
Faithdefenders ; " How to witness to Mormons ".

 

[withwonderingawe]

And where does it say that in the bible??? So JS says that intelligence has always existed----floating out there in space------does it exist in rocks. water, what exactly is thinking, does it exist in a black hole?? An astronaut out there can grab a handful of it??----Maybe somebody can figure out how to grab some 'cause I know several people who are in dire need of some.

Funny you should quote "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Dan 12:4)"

We are at the 'end' and knowledge has been increased!

We don't really know a lot about intelligence except that it is made up of light and some darkness, there is light matter and dark matter. The first time I heard about dark matter a little light in my countenance came on which said, God separates light from darkness.

When the Bible is speaking of your light it is speaking of your intelligence, I know it's a play on words, light and truth knowledge it's all intertwined.

Back when I was pondering this out I insisted for my own base of truth that I had to find at least one or two passages in the Bible which refer to the doctrine. Mind you I did not get this out of a Mormon manual I asked God to help me understand.

So what is the claim;
Doctrine and Covenants 93
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

D&C 88
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things,

And then in the Book of Abraham 3rd chapter and starting in verse 18 he has a wondrous vision;

“…..also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

…These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all…I dwell in the midst of them all; …. for I rule in the heavens above, …over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

And there stood one among them that was like unto God,….”

So there is this light within us, it is that little seed of deity which is eternal. Your intelligence is what gives you your personality either good or bad, willing or rebellious. God organized these beings of intelligence or placed them in spirit matter. Knowing the Gospel as I do I would say this is the beginning of making man a whole living soul. In our doctrine a soul is intelligence, spirit and physical body.

**This whole concept answers the problem of evil, God did not create Satan to be evil, he just came that way.

The first Bible passage which I read that made me sit up and go 'oh I see' was Job 18
5 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
6 The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his candle shall be put out with him.

Which took me to Prov 20
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord,....

James 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights,

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:22
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light/intelligence that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

As I began to understand this I could see that God is dividing "the light from the darkness" within us, at some point the darkness will be purged out of us and we will become beings of light which comprehend all things.

Now 2 Cor 5, I'm going to take it apart;
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved..."

We have a physical earthly body which he calls a house because it houses something.

"we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

So we have another house our spirits and what is it housings? Well the answer is that eternal light of intelligence.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

I found at least for me the Bible supports what Joseph Smith taught us, that 'increase of knowledge' which the Lord gave to him.

 

[withwonderingawe]

It looks to me that maybe, the mormons who are posting on here have never seen the hidden facts about their denomination? To the mormons on here:

The facts i mentioned through that link, are you saying that they are 'not' part of Mormonism?

Are you saying that nothing on this list is true:

Mormon Beliefs documented
Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers--not anti-Mormon writers:

1. Book of Mormon
   1. The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).
2. Devil, the
   1. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
   2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
3. God
   1. God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith,Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
   2. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans . . . ," (D&C 130:22).
4. God, becoming a god
   1. After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
   2. "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20).
5. God, many gods
   1. There are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
   2. "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light," (Book of Abraham 4:3).
6. God, mother goddess
   1. There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
   2. God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
7. God, Trinity
   1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
8. Heaven
   1. There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).
9. Holy Ghost, the
   1. The Holy Ghost is a male personage (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118, Journal of Discources, vol. 5, p. 179).
10. Jesus
    1. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
    2. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
    3. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh . . . " (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).
11. Joseph Smith
    1. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
12. Pre-existence
    1. We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).
    2. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
    3. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
13. Salvation
    1. "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
    2. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
    3. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
    4. Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).
    5. There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
    6. "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).
    7. "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements--'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
    8. "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts," (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
    9. "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).
14. Trinity, the
    1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

Mormon beliefs are not in line with Biblical truth because they teach things that are opposed to the Word of God. It is clear that Mormonism is not Christian.

I think Iron gave you a good run down there of how much is taken out of context and just put together for sensational purposes. But I want to make a few points;

1, McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine was written before he was an apostles but his father in-law was the prophet at the time. When he published it the Church leaders kind of rolled their eye but over the years as his own understanding grew he would put out new edition making changes, he never intended it to be the final word on every subject.

2 James Talmage was a great man, a scientist
"1883 he took selected courses in chemistry and geology at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Though a special student and not a candidate for a degree, during his single year Talmage passed nearly all the examinations required in the four-year course; he graduated and in 1883 and 1884 he was engaged in advanced work at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland.....Talmage was elected to life membership in several learned societies, and for many years was a Fellow of the Royal Microscopical Society (London), Fellow of the Royal Scottish Geographical Society (Edinburgh), Fellow of the Geological Society (London), Fellow of the Geological Society of America, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, Associate of the Philosophical Society of Great Britain, or Victoria Institute, and Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science" wik

He became a member of the of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1911. And he wrote a number of books under the direction of the Church (unlike McConkie) The Articles of Faith, The House of the Lord, and Jesus the Christ. These books are as near to being canonized as can be.

3 When studying Mormonism try to look for more than one source, read the whole quote in contest and establish what the back ground for the line of thought is. As an example;
"If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670)"

Ask why, what does he mean? 'As is' it sounds like we worship Joseph Smith but nothing could be further from the truth.

Another example of out of context; "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

He was saying only though the salvation given us though the atonement can be saved, the only thing we can do is be obedient because that's what he has asked us to do, that's all we can do.

 

[mmksparbud]

Funny you should quote "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Dan 12:4)"

What's even funnier is --I never quoted that verse!!!
But since YOU brought it up----Knowledge has been increased. It is the last days. From ancient days to about the late 1700's, knowledge was pretty much stationary. Travel was by horse back, boats, walking. After that---boom! With the industrial revolution came a steady increase in knowledge. The last 250 years has been an astonishing increase in knowledge. Travel is now at the speed of light, what used to take days, and even months to communicate, is now done instantly. The internet has unleashed information at blinding speed. Knowledge can be accessed now at a great speed. Never, ever has so much knowledge been able to be accessed so fast. We are now, at almost the place where the pre-flood people were mentally. Adam and Eve had fully perfect bodies and minds that could store vast amounts of knowledge. Adam did not spring to life with an empty brain---he was able to name all the animals. It was evil that they did not know---they were only surrounded by good. These people before the flood were of far greater intelligence than we. These people did not go around in animal skins, sitting around the fire gnawing on bones and grunting. We have no idea what they were capable of.

Gen 4:20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
Gen 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

They were artisans-- they had hundreds of years to learn, retain, and pass on their knowledge and abilities. The knowledge of those people was passed on by Noah and his children---over time, that knowledge was ceased by the "upper crust" of the people, who became the spiritual leaders---knowledge is power, they hung on to it and only the priests of each culture and royalty had it--that is where the knowledge of building great pyramids and such things came from until that knowledge was eventually lost. "As in the days of Noah"---we are there as Daniel predicted. God is the light of the world--He is light. He is all light. Light and darkness is not a metaphor for only cerebral knowledge and lack of it---it is spiritual knowledge. The bible gives us the light of God--the spiritual knowledge--to know Him and Him crucified for us. That knowledge was lost. The Jews were given the light, and given the Sanctuary Services to show the coming of the crucified Lamb of God. It is being unleashed everywhere--His name, the knowledge of Jesus Christ the crucified is the light of the world. It is your Mormonism that is darkening that light. Putting out His candle, darkening the soul and depriving man of the true knowledge of the Light of the world---the real JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR OUR SINS. And that light is given freely to all who accept it and follow Him in truth and grace. And the light is being seen by Mormons also who are discerning that they have been tricked into darkness. His truth has been darkened by shamanism, but it is still there and beckons.

 

[withwonderingawe]

What's even funnier is --I never quoted that verse!!!

oops it was ticking,


I think the fact that the knowledge we are accumulating is coming faster and faster shows the end is near.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Mormons are trying to defend their faith on here but looking at their doctrines online and what they believe i find it hard how they can justify what is written against what they say on here? What the mormons believe, having looked at good sources, is quite shocking to me.

https://carm.org/mormon-beliefs

FYI carm is a poor site to learn about LDS beliefs ( their objective is to freighten you away) and this specific page you linked is full of spun false information.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Why didn't you answer the question I asked on that post?? Does wearing the Mormon undergarments make you Mormon?
Do you have to wear the undergarments??

I have already answered both of these as no in the earlier part of the thread.

Now, since wearing a cross does not make one a Christian, what part of not wearing a cross makes one not a Christian (the OP)?

 

[mmksparbud]

Some on here remind me of my friend. She fell in love with a man that was not a Christian. He wanted to marry her--she agonized over what to do. She prayed and prayed and prayed and was in tears over this and fasted about it. She came to me a total mess. I knew exactly what she was doing---been there, done that.----I asked her one question-----why are you agonizing over a situation that God has already told you what to do about??? She was taken aback--"Huh?"----He already said do not be unequally yoked---why are you asking Him for an answer to a question He already answered for you??----I wish somebody had asked me that!!! She stammered and stuttered a bit, then she got up and went home. I saw her again a couple months later----"Well, I prayed and prayed about this, and I feel very strongly that God has led me to marry him."---She did. She spent 10 years with a drunken lout who beat her till she finally left him and divorced him, after he'd broken her face 4 times. But she felt God had led her to marry him??!!!----Don't think so.
Praying about the word of God not being His word? Why?
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Praying about some far fetched theory of someone but it is not in the scriptures?--Why?
Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.