Is everything "meaningless" without God?

[Hieronymus]

But things have meaning as we experience them.

But they lose it when we stop existing.

Which is the only thing that actually matters to me, and is sufficient for us to be happy. Well, unless you're a theist I guess...

Could well be.
But what if you're an unhappy person?
Unhappy AND no purpose for living a miserable life.
That wouldn't matter either eventually, because when it's over, there is no trace of it, no hind sight.

 

[Hieronymus]

A sinner by definition doesn't follow God's rules. If you really believed in God then you would know that all sinners without faith in Him will have an end in fire and judgement.

Or will they be small in God's Kingdom?
Or cleansed by the Fire?
(or both?)
...but is not on-topic here perhaps...

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Ooooch... and here I was, thinking I had found someone with a new and refreshing view on the topic.

Well, let me tell you one thing I learned quite early about being an atheist... the threats that Christians like to level at you do not touch you at all.

Christians like to lament that atheists ridicule them... I wonder why they seem to be so aggravated by not being taken serious, but completely cool when faced with the threats of fire and judgement by other theists.

I guess it might be because they don't believe that they will land in icy Hel for not dying gloriously in battle... but doesn't that difference in reaction then also mean that they believe their faith is ridiculous?

I'm not here to threaten you or scare you into belief. I'm just telling you the truth: believe it or not it makes no difference to me. God's feelings aren't hurt and neither are mine.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

But they lose it when we stop existing.

So? That doesn't mean that we do not have meaning without a god, which I think you asserted.

Could well be.
But what if you're an unhappy person?
Unhappy AND no purpose for living a miserable life.
That wouldn't matter either eventually, because when it's over, there is no trace of it, no hind sight.

Soooo... go to a therapist. What does this have to do with having meaning without a god?

 

[Hieronymus]

So? That doesn't mean that we do not have meaning without a god, which I think you asserted.

I meant God, not "a god".
Not necessarily God of the Bible, but the Original Cause(r) that has a purpose with his creation (including us).
A god can be one of many gods, but God is God, the Original Cause, the Supreme Being.

Soooo... go to a therapist. What does this have to do with having meaning without a god?

Obviously a miserable life on earth can have a purpose too, if there's a purpose giver, like God would be the purpose giver.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I meant God, not "a god".
Not necessarily God of the Bible, but the Original Cause(r) that has a purpose with his creation (including us).
A god can be one of many gods, but God is God, the Original Cause, the Supreme Being.

It doesn't matter what god you're talking about. It doesn't change the problem you have. You haven't demonstrated that you can't have meaning without any god at all. I've shown that you can have meaning without any god at all.

Obviously a miserable life on earth can have a purpose too, if there's a purpose giver, like God would be the purpose giver.

But it's not necessary, which is the whole point of the thread...

 

[Hieronymus]

It doesn't matter what god you're talking about. It doesn't change the problem you have.

What problem do i have??

You haven't demonstrated that you can't have meaning without any god at all. I've shown that you can have meaning without any god at all.

I explained it twice already, but you say your present experience is enough for you.
Fine, but it will be all for nothing in the end when there is no purpose for it beyond the now.
The now that will pass and be no more.

But it's not necessary, which is the whole point of the thread...

Purpose is not necessary to you.
Fine by me.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I explained it twice already, but you say your present experience is enough for you.

And what I keep explaining is that meaning isn't dependent on a god. And that my position is demonstrably true and that it's illogical to believe otherwise. You haven't shown that position to be incorrect.

Fine, but it will be all for nothing in the end when there is no purpose for it beyond the now. The now that will pass and be no more.

So? I'm not so egotistical that I care if the meanings I give things die with me.

Purpose is not necessary to you.
Fine by me.

I didn't say that. I give purposes to lots of things.

 

[Freodin]

What problem do i have?? I explained it twice already, but you say your present experience is enough for you.
Fine, but it will be all for nothing in the end when there is no purpose for it beyond the now.
The now that will pass and be no more.
Purpose is not necessary to you.
Fine by me.

What is the problem with there being no purpose?

 

[Hieronymus]

And what I keep explaining is that meaning isn't dependent on a god.

Not "a god" dude.

I'll leave you to your delusion of purposeless purpose.
Bye.

 

[nerfherder]

If God does not exist you are still fidning meaning in life right now so no it's not meaningless.
If God does exist then it's the same thing.
Life is what you make it whether God is in it or not.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Not "a god" dude.

I'll leave you to your delusion of purposeless purpose.
Bye.

Like I pointed out, since humans can give meaning, then that's all that's necessary for meaning to exist. Whether it's god, God or GOD!!! makes absolutely no difference.

You do understand that, right?

Or are you the deluded one?

 

[Chriliman]

It doesn't matter what god you're talking about. It doesn't change the problem you have. You haven't demonstrated that you can't have meaning without any god at all. I've shown that you can have meaning without any god at all.

Assuming there is One true God who is the reason for all valuable meaning in life, then yes, it does matter who/what this God is.

Assuming there is no true God that is the reason for all valuable meaning in life, then yes, we each ascribe meaning to our own lives, essentially making us mini "gods". Atheists like to be their own personal mini "god" because they make the rules and change the rules as they please. This is obvious.

An atheist is free to do this, but in this worldview of defining your own meaning in life, you can't logically say something is meaningful apart from yourself because you require self to define meaning. IOW, from an atheists perspective, when they go out of existence, life has no meaning for anyone ever at any time because it was that atheist who personally ascribed all meaning to life.

If he begins to say life can have meaning apart from himself, then he's ascribing to a meaning that he is not the cause of, who then is the cause of this meaning that is separate and not caused by the atheist? The most obvious answer is the One true God who gives life all meaning.

Why is this answer obvious? Because without a One true God who gives life all meaning, we all individually ascribe all meaning to life. The consequences of this is that the meaning I ascribe to life is more true than the meaning you ascribe to life, but then again the meaning you ascribe to life is more true than the meaning I ascribe to life and thus in this worldview where we all ascribe our own meaning, we have an insurmountable contradiction.

You mentioned a problem...I think I found it rooted in the atheistic worldview that says we all ascribe our own personal meaning to life.

 

[Freodin]

snip

I see you are doing your usual spiel of drawing "obvious" conclusions about anything.

Perhaps you haven't figured it out yet... but you are extremely bad at that.
Just look at this mess. What you propose as "obvious" is so obviously glaringly false, not even you should be able to ignore it.

If he begins to say life can have meaning apart from himself, then he's ascribing to a meaning that he is not the cause of, who then is the cause of this meaning that is separate and not caused by the atheist? The most obvious answer is the One true God who gives life all meaning.

The most obvious answer, beside "the atheist", is the One true God?
Has it never even fleetingly occured to you that there might be more than one source of meaning?

 

[Davian]

But they lose it when we stop existing. Could well be.
But what if you're an unhappy person?
Unhappy AND no purpose for living a miserable life.
That wouldn't matter either eventually, because when it's over, there is no trace of it, no hind sight.

Are you proffering religion as a comfort blanket? Because the alternative (no gods) makes you sad?

 

[Hieronymus]

Like I pointed out, since humans can give meaning, then that's all that's necessary for meaning to exist. Whether it's god, God or GOD!!! makes absolutely no difference.

You do understand that, right?

I firmly disagree and i explained why more than twice.
But you refuse to acknowledge the simple logic.
Fine, but stop acting like i don't get it.

Or are you the deluded one?

Look, Tarzan, you join a Christian forum.
But for what?
What do you expect?
Do you expect us to agree that temporary existence has a purpose?
Of course not, do you?

I'm fine with your choice, if that keeps you happy.
Good luck with it and may God bless you.
Bye.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Assuming there is One true God who is the reason for all valuable meaning in life, then yes, it does matter who/what this God is.

Whether there is a god or not, I ascribe meaning - valuable, super extra valuable or whatever superlative you want to add. So, once again, no god of any kind necessary. This. Is not. Difficult. To understand...

Assuming there is no true God that is the reason for all valuable meaning in life, then yes, we each ascribe meaning to our own lives, essentially making us mini "gods". Atheists like to be their own personal mini "god" because they make the rules and change the rules as they please. This is obvious.

Using the usual definition of "god", I in no way make myself a god. So, it's not only not obvious, it's wrong.

An atheist is free to do this, but in this worldview of defining your own meaning in life, you can't logically say something is meaningful apart from yourself because you require self to define meaning. IOW, from an atheists perspective, when they go out of existence, life has no meaning for anyone ever at any time because it was that atheist who personally ascribed all meaning to life.

This is just ridiculous. Each individual "self" ascribes their own meaning to their life.

 

[Chriliman]

The most obvious answer, beside "the atheist", is the One true God?
Has it never even fleetingly occured to you that there might be more than one source of meaning?

I agree there are many sources of meaning. I'm more interested in the original true source of meaning. Where does meaning come from? Is this an invalid question? If so, why?

It doesn't make sense for me to say that I ascribe all meaning to life nor does it make sense that you ascribe all meaning to life. The reason this doesn't make sense is because life still has meaning to someone else, even if I cease to exist, therefore I do not ascribe all meaning to life. Well who does? An obvious answer is God.

It's not obvious to you and that's okay, no need for insults.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I firmly disagree and i explained why more than twice.
But you refuse to acknowledge the simple logic.
Fine, but stop acting like i don't get it.

You haven't used logic, and you haven't put forth an actual rebuttal to my position. So yeah... you don't get it.

Let me make it as simple as possible for you:

1. Meaning is defined as "the end, purpose, or significance of something".
2. That definition does not preclude the ability of humans to give meaning.
3. Therefore, all that is necessary for meaning is humans. No god, God or GODs necessary.

Or are you denying the definition of "meaning" and ascribing you own?

Look, Tarzan, you join a Christian forum.
But for what?
What do you expect?
Do you expect us to agree that temporary existence has a purpose?
Of course not, do you?

There's already been one Christian on this thread that correctly says that people can give meaning. So yeah, I do expect Christians to actually come to the logical conclusion. Especially in the Philosophy section...

 

[Freodin]

I agree there are many sources of meaning. I'm more interested in the original true source of meaning. Where does meaning come from? Is this an invalid question? If so, why?

Original? True? Well, whatever gives meaning! Isn't that obvious?

So if there is a source of meaning, it is an original true source of meaning. What else can it be? And if there are many sources of meaning, each of them is a original true source of meaning.

What you are hinting at might be the first source of meaning... but that is irrelevant. The existence of one meaning does not invalidate the existence of other meanings.

But that is basically what you offered as the "obvious" answer in your previous post... and now you instantly negate it. "Obvious"... you keep using this term. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It doesn't make sense for me to say that I ascribe all meaning to life nor does it make sense that you ascribe all meaning to life. The reason this doesn't make sense is because life still has meaning to someone else, even if I cease to exist, therefore I do not ascribe all meaning to life. Well who does? An obvious answer is God.

And round again you turn. Look at it, closely. With reason and honesty.
If you cease to exist, you do no longer ascribe "all meaning to life". Well, in fact you didn't do that when you existed.
But yes indeed... life still has meaning to "someone else". But look at it closely. Your very own words. Life still has meaning to "SOMEONE ELSE".

Well, who is it? The "obvious answer" is God, isn't it? Because there are only two beings in the world... YOU and GOD!

Really? REALLY???