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Is everything "meaningless" without God?

Eudaimonist

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How meaningful is the life of a single virus cell?

Viruses aren't alive, so it is a poor example. But let's take a bacterium instead, which we can agree is a living organism.

Looking the awesome vastness of the universe, without God, are we not just as meaningless as a single [bacterium]?

To whom?

Looking at the awesome vastness of the universe, I am filled with a sense of meaning. In all of the vastness of the universe, which is almost entirely non-living and non-sentient, I'm an entity that can perceive and contemplate that vastness. Isn't that amazing?! Isn't that inspiring?

My existence is meaningful to myself. I don't care if I have no meaning to the universe, or only just as much meaning as a bacterium to the universe. None of that matters. The universe is not even a living, sentient entity. Why shouldn't its vastness have less meaning than a bacterium?

Your Christian nihilism does not touch me. I would have thought that you'd be aware of that by now. :)


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Hieronymus

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Despite your incredulity, no, everything is not meaningless. In fact, it's demonstrably true that things have meaning. it's inherently illogical to think otherwise.
No it isn't, it's just an unpleasant thought.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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No it isn't, it's just an unpleasant thought.

No, it's illogical. Actually, it's so illogical that I can hardly believe that we're discussing this.

Based on the definition of "meaning" (the end, purpose, or significance of something), people can give things meaning. Which we do. Which proves that things are "meaningful" without a deity. Which means that denying this is illogical.

Seriously people...
 
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Hieronymus

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No, it's illogical. Actually, it's so illogical that I can hardly believe that we're discussing this.
Then let me explain.
If there is nothing after life, there is no purpose for it.
The sun will burn up and that's the end of it, and there will be no trace of our existence anywhere.
No memories either (obviously).
All for nothing...
 
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Freodin

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Then let me explain.
If there is nothing after life, there is no purpose for it.
The sun will burn up and that's the end of it, and there will be no trace of our existence anywhere.
No memories either (obviously).
Even if we accept the (false) equivocation of "meaning" and "purpose", this is still wrong. Even "purpose" does not have to be eternal to exist.

Just imaging keeping used toilet paper around for eternity. You don't do that, do you? And did it not serve its purpose?
 
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Hikarifuru

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The book of Ecclesiastes starts out with a startling exclamation:

“‘Meaningless! Meaningless!’
says the Teacher.
‘Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless’” (Ecclesiastes 1:2).

Other translations have the word vanity or futility in place of meaningless. The point is the same: Solomon in his old age has found everything in this world to be empty and void of meaning. This lament becomes the theme of the whole book.

Saying that everything is meaningless sounds depressing, but we must keep Solomon’s point of view in mind. This is found in Ecclesiastes 1:14: “I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.” The key phrase is under the sun, which is repeated throughout the book. Solomon is sharing an earth-bound perspective. He is only considering life “under the sun”; that is, a human life lived to the exclusion of any consideration of God. From that godless perspective, everything is indeed “meaningless.”

In the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon discusses ten vanities—ten things that are “meaningless” when considered from the limited point of view of “under the sun.” Without God, human wisdom is meaningless (2:14–16); labor (2:18–23); amassing things (2:26); life itself (3:18–22); competition (4:4); selfish overwork (4:7–8); power and authority (4:16); greed (5:10); wealth and accolades (6:1–2); and perfunctory religion (8:10–14).

When Solomon says, “Everything is meaningless,” he did not mean that everything in the world is of zero value. Rather, his point is that all human efforts apart from God’s will are meaningless. Solomon had it all, and he had tried everything, but when he left God out of the equation, nothing satisfied him. There is purpose in life, and it is found in knowing God and keeping His commands. That’s why Solomon ends his book this way:

“Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

So if God does not exist, the universe was created from nothing, by nothing, for absolutely no reason. All life, including our own, is nothing more than a byproduct of nature by natural means and when we die we will fade into nothing. Ultimately the universe will use up all its energy (per the laws of thermodynamics ) and fade into blackness. With all that being said, what's the point? Is everything not meaningless?

I have children, family, friends, lovers and lots of needs. It's silly to say life is meaningless. I don't need to have been given a purpose in order to have meaning in my life.

But another important thing is that Solomon wrote that book during a backslidden time of his life. He was not in a healthy position with god when he said a lot of those things. He claimed that everything was vain, which is clearly a contradiction to the rest of the bible's teachings and values and priorities. Some bible scholars simply think that the book is beneficial but no not all of his claims are true.

I think you should take it as a lesson about the struggles humans face, yes sometimes we feel vain and alone and meaningless, especially if don't believe in gods have things to protect you. But some people love their self and their friends and family and carry on without help from the gods, because we love each other and want to take care of each other.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Then let me explain.
If there is nothing after life, there is no purpose for it.

Nooo, the definition of "meaning" has no temporal component to it. If I give something meaning now, it has meaning. So it's still illogical to say that everything is meaningless without a god.

The sun will burn up and that's the end of it, and there will be no trace of our existence anywhere.
No memories either (obviously).

Well, we don't know if we'll travel beyond our solar system before the Sun dies, but even if this is the case...
so what?
 
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Hikarifuru

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Fall in love, have a child, get hungry, deal with racism or discrimination, find a friend who sometimes needs your help... the idea that life is meaningless without a divine purpose or an afterlife is a pipedream.

That someone created this post for a reason, to fulfill some need to communicate and be heard and agreed with, is an example of the meaning in our lives.
 
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Hikarifuru

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Then let me explain.
If there is nothing after life, there is no purpose for it.
The sun will burn up and that's the end of it, and there will be no trace of our existence anywhere.
No memories either (obviously).
All for nothing...

Ok.... that's like saying the food that you need and want and enjoy today is meaningless, just because it won't be there tomorrow. But try to go without food or water for the next 24 hours and see how much that hurts and how meaningful it is to consume it instead.

Having an afterlife or not is irrelevant. It doesn't change what you want and need right now.
 
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Chriliman

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No, it's illogical. Actually, it's so illogical that I can hardly believe that we're discussing this.

Based on the definition of "meaning" (the end, purpose, or significance of something), people can give things meaning. Which we do. Which proves that things are "meaningful" without a deity. Which means that denying this is illogical.

Seriously people...

Agreed. The question is, do you care to know why things are meaningful? Where do you think this information about life's meaning will come from? Yourself? Or some other source that has information? Who or what was the first source of meaningful information about existence? Was it Jesus? Or some hominid who all the sudden said "rock"?

These extremely basic questions easily lead to the thought that an eternally alive God exists and that He gives information for why He gives life to His creation.

One cannot know meaning in life, unless they first ask "why?" But where does information about meaning originate from? That is an important question.
 
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ClothedInGrace

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Atheists don't need God to find meaning in life, because they simply create their own. That's what being a sinner is all about: you are your own god. They don't feel the need for God and never will until God's Spirit decides it is time for them to change.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Atheists don't need God to find meaning in life, because they simply create their own. That's what being a sinner is all about: you are your own god. They don't feel the need for God and never will until God's Spirit decides it is time for them to change.

You have a definition of "god" that I don't accept. According to the definition I go by, I can't be a god.
 
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Hieronymus

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Atheists don't need God to find meaning in life, because they simply create their own.
Aha, but then they die, and later the solar system will die, and so will every other solar system, and then there's nothing, so all was for nothing.
Annoying logic, but inescapable logic.
(You can escape it by not discussing this with theists)
 
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Freodin

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Atheists don't need God to find meaning in life, because they simply create their own. That's what being a sinner is all about: you are your own god. They don't feel the need for God and never will until God's Spirit decides it is time for them to change.
That is the most amusing explanation of that topic that I have ever read. Usually we are only accused to want to be our own god... but here we have it: we are god. We do the things that God does. We are only "sinners" because we do not bow to his sovereignity. A sovereignity that he obviously chose to enact in a way to make us sinners... or else he would have decided it is time for us to change. So even in being sinners, we just follow God's rules. God wants us to be our own gods. God wants them to be sheep.

I guess it is just jealousy on the Christian side. ;)
 
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FireDragon76

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It's unlikely Ecclessiastes was actually written by Solomon. The material seems to reflect a much later date. The book is similar in tone to Job, which was probably written down during the exile, and drawn from Mesopotamian folk stories. Both books reflect a very advanced, philosophical form of Judaism, and are reflecting on the basic anxiety that developed in the Jewish mind between the commandments of God and the vagueries of human existence.
 
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Freodin

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Aha, but then they die, and later the solar system will die, and so will every other solar system, and then there's nothing, so all was for nothing.
Annoying logic, but inescapable logic.
(You can escape it by not discussing this with theists)
Who is there going to say that it is all for nothing?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Aha, but then they die, and later the solar system will die, and so will every other solar system, and then there's nothing, so all was for nothing.
Annoying logic, but inescapable logic.
(You can escape it by not discussing this with theists)

But things have meaning as we experience them. Which is the only thing that actually matters to me, and is sufficient for us to be happy. Well, unless you're a theist I guess...
 
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ClothedInGrace

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So even in being sinners, we just follow God's rules.
A sinner by definition doesn't follow God's rules. If you really believed in God then you would know that all sinners without faith in Him will have an end in fire and judgement. You might feel happy twisting my words to justify your unbelief, but you won't when you realize you're God's enemy. You are not really a god, but to be a sinner is to think and act like you are. You are content to find meaning in what is meaningless without God.
 
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Freodin

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A sinner by definition doesn't follow God's rules. If you really believed in God then you would know that all sinners without faith in Him will have an end in fire and judgement. You might feel happy twisting my words to justify your unbelief, but you won't when you realize you're God's enemy. You are not really a god, but to be a sinner is to think and act like you are. You are content to find meaning in what is meaningless without God.
Ooooch... and here I was, thinking I had found someone with a new and refreshing view on the topic.

Well, let me tell you one thing I learned quite early about being an atheist... the threats that Christians like to level at you do not touch you at all.

Christians like to lament that atheists ridicule them... I wonder why they seem to be so aggravated by not being taken serious, but completely cool when faced with the threats of fire and judgement by other theists.

I guess it might be because they don't believe that they will land in icy Hel for not dying gloriously in battle... but doesn't that difference in reaction then also mean that they believe their faith is ridiculous?

:D
 
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