Best Christian responses to Nietzsche?

[Archaeopteryx]

Could you please explain your interpretation of Nietzsche, then?

I thought I already did? Nietzsche diagnosed the pathology: as he saw it, Christianity would give birth to nihilism.

 

[Chesterton]

That's one interpretation. But I'm not convinced that Nietzsche was intent on outlining a philosophy that advantages those who are already powerful.

I fell out my chair when I read this. The man loved slavery. He saw exploitation in nature and believed humans should do the same to each other. He wrote something to the effect that the main thing wrong with European culture was that it didn't produce men strong enough to enslave other men.

I thought I already did? Nietzsche diagnosed the pathology: as he saw it, Christianity would give birth to nihilism.

I got back in my chair and fell out again. How could Christianity possibly give birth to nihilism?

 

[CN_999]

That's one interpretation. But I'm not convinced that Nietzsche was intent on outlining a philosophy that advantages those who are already powerful.

This raises an interesting point.

Nietzsche lends himself to a lot of mutually contradictory readings, even by the standards of philosophy. It's not like critiquing (for example) a logical positivist.

So perhaps it would be best to ask the interlocutor to spell out their interpretation of Nietzsche, on the assumption that that you're not discussing "Nietzsche" at all, but whatever Nietzsche-construct the person has assembled from Nietzsche's vague but suggestive oeuvre.

 

[anonymous person]

I fell out my chair when I read this. The man loved slavery. He saw exploitation in nature and believed humans should do the same to each other. He wrote something to the effect that the main thing wrong with European culture was that it didn't produce men strong enough to enslave other men.


I got back in my chair and fell out again. How could Christianity possibly give birth to nihilism?

Precisely what I was thinking good man.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I fell out my chair when I read this. The man loved slavery. He saw exploitation in nature and believed humans should do the same to each other. He wrote something to the effect that the main thing wrong with European culture was that it didn't produce men strong enough to enslave other men.


I got back in my chair and fell out again. How could Christianity possibly give birth to nihilism?

Yet another Christian who doesn't understand Nietzsche. Do yourself a favour: get back to your chair and, for starters, read Twilight of the Idols and Human, All too Human.

 

[FireDragon76]

I also don't understand how Christianity gives birth to nihilism.

I'm reminded of the famous words of Chesterton (the real one), that Christianity hasn't been tried and found lacking, it's been found difficult and left untried. You can't dump all the problems of Europe's "Enlightenment" on the feet of Christians. And yet that's basically Nietzsche's central theme.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I got back in my chair and fell out again. How could Christianity possibly give birth to nihilism?

By convincing its adherents that life must be imbued with theological significance or else it is meaningless? By encouraging its adherents to view this life as a sloppy impromptu dress rehearsal for the next, which promises to be so beautiful that this world is ugly by comparison? By transforming moral statements into religious opinions, anchored to an unstable theological foundation on the verge of a devastating collapse?

 

[FireDragon76]

By convincing its adherents that life must be imbued with theological significance or else it is meaningless?

I don't remember ever hearing that in a sermon. Ever.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't remember ever hearing that in a sermon. Ever.

You might not recall hearing it articulated that way, but that's the general idea. It's all-or-nothing.

 

[Chesterton]

By convincing its adherents that life must be imbued with theological significance or else it is meaningless?

Nietzsche himself said that at times, and I agree with him, and atheists on here say it also when they say we must make up our own meaning for ourselves. To recognize that you have to invent your own meaning is an admission that there isn't any to be found.

By encouraging its adherents to view this life as a sloppy impromptu dress rehearsal for the next, which promises to be so beautiful that this world is ugly by comparison?

A Christian wouldn't say the world is ugly, though one might say Nietzsche's world is ugly. But even if I grant what you say is accurate I don't see how that tends toward nihilism.

By transforming moral statements into religious opinions, anchored to an unstable theological foundation on the verge of a devastating collapse?

Sounds like you're saying if the theology collapsed we'd resort to nihilism? Like saying if fossil fuels run out we'd have no energy. We would go forward to new energies, or back to horse and buggy, but we wouldn't just do without some kind of energy. No, Christian values have overlap with other value systems so we'd have those to draw on and wouldn't do without values altogether.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Nietzsche himself said that at times, and I agree with him, and atheists on here say it also when they say we must make up our own meaning for ourselves. To recognize that you have to invent your own meaning is an admission that there isn't any to be found.

Not quite. It's a response to the Christian's all-or-nothing thinking. To many Christians, if God does not exist, then life is meaningless. Nietzsche didn't agree with that view. But he diagnosed it as a symptom of nihilism.

A Christian wouldn't say the world is ugly, though one might say Nietzsche's world is ugly. But even if I grant what you say is accurate I don't see how that tends toward nihilism.

Nietzsche's world is the world. His point is that the Christian has elevated all his hopes and values to some other world, and that he considers this world a phantom or shadow of that other world, which is better and far more beautiful. (We can trace this notion back further to Plato).

Sounds like you're saying if the theology collapsed we'd resort to nihilism? Like saying if fossil fuels run out we'd have no energy. We would go forward to new energies, or back to horse and buggy, but we wouldn't just do without some kind of energy. No, Christian values have overlap with other value systems so we'd have those to draw on and wouldn't do without values altogether.

Perhaps you wouldn't resort to nihilism. But then perhaps you aren't the sort of Christian who says "Without God, life is meaningless." You've probably been on this forum long enough to know that many Christians do hold such a notion.

 

[anonymous person]

Nietzsche himself said that at times, and I agree with him, and atheists on here say it also when they say we must make up our own meaning for ourselves. To recognize that you have to invent your own meaning is an admission that there isn't any to be found.

Here! Here! Chesterton!

Very well said and I agree.

A Christian wouldn't say the world is ugly, though one might say Nietzsche's world is ugly. But even if I grant what you say is accurate I don't see how that tends toward nihilism.

Bah, it is obvious, painfully so if I may say so myself, that this strawman to which you honor too much in even responding to, is all this gentleman has left to throw at us Chesterton my dear chap. You are an example in charity if there ever was one!

Sounds like you're saying if the theology collapsed we'd resort to nihilism? Like saying if fossil fuels run out we'd have no energy. We would go forward to new energies, or back to horse and buggy, but we wouldn't just do without some kind of energy. No, Christian values have overlap with other value systems so we'd have those to draw on and wouldn't do without values altogether.

Excellent illustration once again! How refreshing.

 

[anonymous person]

And yes, life in an atheistic universe is meaningless.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And yes, life in an atheistic universe is meaningless.

How so?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Bah, it is obvious, painfully so if I may say so myself, that this strawman to which you honor too much in even responding to, is all this gentleman has left to throw at us Chesterton my dear chap. You are an example in charity if there ever was one!

At us? I was responding to Chesterton, not to you. As far as I can tell, Chesterton is not like you, and lumping him in the same category as you would be an insult to him.

 

[Eudaimonist]

And yes, life in an atheistic universe is meaningless.

You are the sort of Christian to which Nietzsche was referring.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Chesterton]

Nietzsche's world is the world. His point is that the Christian has elevated all his hopes and values to some other world, and that he considers this world a phantom or shadow of that other world, which is better and far more beautiful. (We can trace this notion back further to Plato).

So Nietzsche hated the world, saw man as the "laughingstock or painful embarrassment", and elevated all his hopes onto his own personal science fiction/fantasy scenario - the coming of the Overman. It's the very escapism he claimed to detest.

Not quite. It's a response to the Christian's all-or-nothing thinking. To many Christians, if God does not exist, then life is meaningless. Nietzsche didn't agree with that view. But he diagnosed it as a symptom of nihilism.

Perhaps you wouldn't resort to nihilism. But then perhaps you aren't the sort of Christian who says "Without God, life is meaningless." You've probably been on this forum long enough to know that many Christians do hold such a notion.

It is all or nothing. I already indicated I believe that if God does not exist life is meaningless. You don't have to be a Christian to recognize that, atheist philosophers have admitted it. You can deceive yourself if it makes you happy or helps you cope but there is no meaning to creation without an intelligent creator. IMO the ancient pagans knew this, and that's part of why they invented gods.

Nietzsche admitted it. A major point of saying "God is Dead" was to say that meaning had previously been derived from God, but that was over, so it's up to us to invent it for ourselves. "The Overman SHALL BE the meaning of the earth!" is what he said.

 

[anonymous person]

So Nietzsche hated the world, saw man as the "laughingstock or painful embarrassment", and elevated all his hopes onto his own personal science fiction/fantasy scenario - the coming of the Overman. It's the very escapism he claimed to detest.




It is all or nothing. I already indicated I believe that if God does not exist life is meaningless. You don't have to be a Christian to recognize that, atheist philosophers have admitted it. You can deceive yourself if it makes you happy or helps you cope but there is no meaning to creation without an intelligent creator. IMO the ancient pagans knew this, and that's part of why they invented gods.

Nietzsche admitted it. A major point of saying "God is Dead" was to say that meaning had previously been derived from God, but that was over, so it's up to us to invent it for ourselves. "The Overman SHALL BE the meaning of the earth!" is what he said.

Here! Here!

Well said.

 

[anonymous person]

You are the sort of Christian to which Nietzsche was referring.


eudaimonia,

Mark

When he said what exactly?

 

[Eudaimonist]

When he said what exactly?

See post #51.


eudaimonia,

Mark