Is it odd how many Christians post that eternal security with Jesus isn't true?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

In order to prove the Bible is valid, you need to know how to see "the Holy Spirit's fingerprints" as it were. The Bible is also without flaw or contradiction, even though it might appear to be at times.

Sounds like you're saying it's a matter of interpretation (knowing how to see "the Holy Spirit's fingerprints"), which would make it subjective. Seems to me that people who think they know how to see "the Holy Spirit's fingerprints" don't always agree on what's a loop, what's a whorl, and what's a delta.

... I'd like you to know FrumiousBandersnatch that you can go to heaven and rest assured that you won't loose your salvation. I won't force you, but I'll keep giving you answers if that's what you want.

That's very kind of you

No, no. In the story, Abraham fell into a deep sleep and dreamt that God went in between the animals to confirm his promise with Abraham. More specifically, Abraham saw a furnace which represents the presence of God (because God does not have a physical form). But he knew it was God because God gave him these instructions when he was awake.

OK. I've also had dreams where I thought I was awake

(now I just want you to know it took me a whole Star Trek episode to write this for you

One wonders which was more worthwhile

 

[Stancet]

Sounds like you're saying it's a matter of interpretation (knowing how to see "the Holy Spirit's fingerprints"), which would make it subjective. Seems to me that people who think they know how to see "the Holy Spirit's fingerprints" don't always agree on what's a loop, what's a whorl, and what's a delta.

The early church and many scholars in today's world can still identify the Holy Spirit in the writings, the same way a book critic is able to identify different authors by the style of their writing. But I agree, this point is kind of subjective. But if you want something really mind blowing, some scholars believe the book of Daniel should be chopped from the Bible. Half of Daniel's book is prophecy, and many of the dates and events match so perfectly there are people who believe Daniel couldn't have been written before Jesus's time, but it was.

That's very kind of you

If you don't mind me asking, you were once a Catholic but somewhere down the line you stopped believing. Do you mind telling me how?

You're not alone, by the way. I have asked every intellectual question a person can ask about God. I've come to believe in him and have faith, but I've also learned through it all how to have compassion on people who are searching for answers.

P.S. I don't like Star Trek . Anything to get me away from it.

 

[Blondepudding]

It's like those who go out of their way to declare a
message that God doesn't love everyone.

Personally, I find such people of unsure footing to begin
with. To be surrounded by others who are firmly rooted in
"that peace which passes all understanding" likely annoys
them enough to drive them to proclaim such twisted ideas.

To me, it's not so much those messages as it is why one would
find it so important to proclaim them in the first place.
What therapeutic effect are they getting out of it?

As far as I'm concerned, such messages are bunk.
No one is slipping through God's hands. Period.
If an alleged butterfinger-afflicted 'god' does exist,
it's probably nothing that a good exorcism can't
remove.

-

I think those who try to convince faithful believers in god that god isn't love, is anything but what is believed by the faithful, are atheists working to destroy the faith from the outside. Because they're unaware, unclear, or totally uninterested in leaving people who think differently than they do alone.

It's like that hole that see's a brand new car still wearing the temporary tag and parked next to the curb by their house. They are so jealous they can't afford such a ride that they walk by with their house key set against the paint. And they press from the taillight to the headlight.

When they're finished without looking back because they felt those ribbons of new paint furl against their fingers as they walked, they are so enraptured with the thought of having just destroyed someone's happiness that they almost dance down the sidewalk.

All because they're a loser who can't afford through their own fault that same new car.

 

[Blondepudding]

My experience with people calling themselves Christians is that they aren't necessarily always completely buying what the Church and Bible tells them.

I would doubt there is a scripture forbidding the faithful to think for themselves.

My experience with people calling themselves Christian while speaking in ways that don't reflect that is that they're attaching the name in order to call names on those who live it.

 

[variant]

I would doubt there is a scripture forbidding the faithful to think for themselves.

You would?

Trust in the Lord with all your heart

and lean not on your own understanding;

in all your ways submit to him,

and he will make your paths straight.

My experience with people calling themselves Christian while speaking in ways that don't reflect that is that they're attaching the name in order to call names on those who live it.

My experience is also that they want to eat their cake and also have it.

 

[Blondepudding]

You would?

Interesting verse 13 in that chapter.

My experience is also that they want to eat their cake and also have it.

That's not my experience. Everyone is different.

 

[variant]

Interesting verse 13 in that chapter.

It would be interesting, but in context it means read your bible and follow the scriptures.

 

[Blondepudding]

It would be interesting, but in context it means read your bible and follow the scriptures.

And yet there is nothing in the scriptures that tell people to be stupid, disavow intellect. No matter how hard you try you'll not prove the Christians god prefers his followers to be stupid.

 

[variant]

And yet there is nothing in the scriptures that tell people to be stupid, disavow intellect. No matter how hard you try you'll not prove the Christians god prefers his followers to be stupid.

No one said anything about being stupid or disavowing intellect. It says to follow the scriptures rather than your own understanding.

It says not to disavow intellect but rather to use your intellect to agree with the scriptures.

Which is fine if the scriptures are correct, but if you think they aren't it is a condemnation of your intellect.

The writers of the scriptures wanted cake and cake eating as well.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I think it is great that this site is open to many different points of view, not just within but also outside of Christianity as well.

This place would be pretty boring if everyone here already agreed with everyone else.

 

[Hikarifuru]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

Does anyone else find it odd that Christians would argue that is so? And how do they do that when they're saying that about themselves first?

I would think a Christian forum believes itself to at all times present the image of God and Christ to anyone who reads its pages. A ministry of sorts that is there to inform those who are not Christian about that faith should they happen on the site.

What impression does it give when Christians believe they are to preach the gospel so that all may be saved from their sins, and then post threads that tell people that should they accept Christ and be redeemed they're actually not secure in that salvation like they thought?

Because the religion is not true, it is bound to have many problems and require all sorts of gymnastics to make it seem true. It's like making a strawman appear alive, yes that's going to require a lot of work and some seemingly silly things... but its because the thing's not alive.

But whether the doctrine of eternal security or OSAS is true or not is a major controversy among Christians. There are a few scriptures that seem to say god ensures the salvation of his servants or that those who are truly saved would not ever leave him.... and there are lots of scriptures that seem to say lots of Christians can and do in fact leave Christ. It's a classic christian controversy.

 

[PsychoeDial]

It's almost like some here are making an argument that Christianity isn't true. And that all Christians are delusional.

If that were true what then would be the purpose of atheists bothering with such people as that?

To BlondePudding,
There are enough threads on these boards that speak to the fact evidence points to Christ Jesus having actually existed. The question many skeptics have is, was he who he said he was? And are those things he said believable, true, worthy of dedicating one's life to?

I think it is up to the individual to ask that for themselves and then consider the answer deeply. Does the gospel make sense?
There is only one gospel told four different ways. Maybe that is what confuses skeptics and others as well. However, the thing about the scriptures is, there is an underlying message that is actually put into words. God calls to him those whom he chooses.
Now, for the dedicated skeptic that is a statement that says, God, who is said to be all knowing, knows all things eternally, has set up the worlds people to be either saved or damned according to his will and his rules.
Therein, it is a matter of being puppets on a string. We're manipulated by a higher power to be what he made us to be. Damned or saved, it isn't actually a matter of free will in the domain of the one that knows all because he created the whole thing from the beginning and unto the end. He is the alpha-beginning and the end-omega. Which for some is contradictory if he is also eternal and omni-present. (everlasting and everyplace at all times).

That God calls to himself those who are meant to be there is a given if someone reads the scriptures, or hears the gospel related, and find it resonates as truth to their deepest spirit.
For those in love or married, they may recognize that same feeling as what happened when they met, 'the one'. They just knew that was to be their husband or wife.

And so it is with faith. And therein is where the conflict arises. Because each one who has faith see's faith through their own understanding. And very often in the case of the Christian beliefs it is interpretation of scriptures through denominational teachings that ascribe a conflict in understanding.

I wouldn't be troubled by those who argue eternal life with Jesus isn't actually eternal. How does someone change someone's mind about such a thing as that? While people can fall from faith, Jesus will always accept his faithful back into the fold. Therein it is a fact of the faith if you will that life in Jesus is eternal. Even if we stray from the road he will always welcome us home.
It isn't as if we fall from faith, backslide as it is called, and Jesus says, I never knew you. Of course he knows us. He knew us before the womb. And that is how he knows those who are sincere and those who are not.
It is a resonance, a balance, a fulfilling of the Holy Spirit into the vacant spaces of those who are fallen. Not born damned as some skeptics argue. But rather, born into the world that for all appearances is not of God. Finding God and knowing how that feels as right, or righteous, is what makes the difference for those who are re-born. Not into a new world, but into an understanding that we are not of this world as it would like us to think. But that we are more.

Eternal security is knowing that beyond a shadow of a doubt. We are as some have said in other discussions, spiritual beings having this physical experience.

 

[Hikarifuru]

If that were true what then would be the purpose of atheists bothering with such people as that?

Well specifically it makes for interesting discussion, but in general Christians influence other peoples lives and those people have to work with or deal with Christians whether they want to or not, they are a part of our lives in some ways.

 

[Blondepudding]

Well specifically it makes for interesting discussion, but in general Christians influence other peoples lives and those people have to work with or deal with Christians whether they want to or not, they are a part of our lives in some ways.

That sounds like you're hostile to the idea of working with Christians. "Whether "they" want to or not."

I imagine Christians would feel the same about atheists. They have to work with them whether they want to or not. Unbelievers are seen as needing Jesus by Christians and yet, the non-believer who is uninterested and makes that clear is still someone the faithful would have to work with.

I don't get why some people find Christians unacceptable and yet expect to be accepted as who they identify themselves to be when they challenge people who are members of a faith.

I don't think Christians need any outside enemies being it seems like the infighting or at least here from the looks of it, keeps them busy.

 

[Hikarifuru]

That sounds like you're hostile to the idea of working with Christians. "Whether "they" want to or not."

I imagine Christians would feel the same about atheists. They have to work with them whether they want to or not. Unbelievers are seen as needing Jesus by Christians and yet, the non-believer who is uninterested and makes that clear is still someone the faithful would have to work with.

I don't get why some people find Christians unacceptable and yet expect to be accepted as who they identify themselves to be when they challenge people who are members of a faith.

I don't think Christians need any outside enemies being it seems like the infighting or at least here from the looks of it, keeps them busy.

I don't mind Christians at all until they start voting about my rights and patronizing me or refusing to stop witnessing to me or calling me names like "sinner" and trying to do the same to my children. Me not being interested in Jesus is not something a Christian has to deal with, it's not doing anything to the Christian, it's only someone wanting the Christian not do something to me. It's the Christians fault for feeling like they have to change the atheist.

Atheists don't have a creed to go out and change the Christians, Christians have a creed to go change the atheists and when the atheists get angry it's not the atheists fault. If Christians left everyone else alone it would be dandy for the most part.

 

[Blondepudding]

Maybe familiarize yourself with the Christians edict to spread the gospel. According to their faith you are a sinner. So too am I. And they're commanded by Jesus to spread the good news that sinners can repent of that fault and be redeemed and renewed.

I don't like that they'll walk onto my doorstep , knock, and imply I'm damned just because they feel compelled to ask first if I'm saved. However, I realize they're doing this because their holy book tells them to. And because they are doing it out of a sense of love for the people that aren't yet saved according to that book.

I don't get mad at them. How could I be mad at what Christians believe and do in the name of that faith they're free to have? They respect that I say no thank you and they move on.
If atheists want to be left alone by Christians it's easy to do. One way to insure they're left alone is to avoid communities that advertise that's all that resides there.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Maybe familiarize yourself with the Christians edict to spread the gospel. According to their faith you are a sinner. So too am I. And they're commanded by Jesus to spread the good news that sinners can repent of that fault and be redeemed and renewed.

I don't like that they'll walk onto my doorstep , knock, and imply I'm damned just because they feel compelled to ask first if I'm saved. However, I realize they're doing this because their holy book tells them to. And because they are doing it out of a sense of love for the people that aren't yet saved according to that book.

I don't get mad at them. How could I be mad at what Christians believe and do in the name of that faith they're free to have? They respect that I say no thank you and they move on.
If atheists want to be left alone by Christians it's easy to do. One way to insure they're left alone is to avoid communities that advertise that's all that resides there.

I am extremely familiar with Christianity and it's teachings already, I was a Christian for most of my life. Like I said I don't mind them if they leave me alone and if they don't leave me alone their self imposed obligations are their problem not mine they need to go home and find a way to deal with me not wanting it. That's easier than me letting them do things to me that I don't want.

The ones who can take no for answer and walk away are fine with me, the ones I am referring to do not. The ones who go to the polls and screw with my life refuse to stop patronizing me or witnessing to me and my kids are refusing to abide by my requests. Being left alone in the ways I am referring to is not accomplished by avoiding Christians.

 

[Hikarifuru]

If atheists want to be left alone by Christians it's easy to do.

no it is not.... there are plenty of examples of legal conflicts over this that cannot be resolved personally and their book tells them to come find me and try to convert me and there's a lot of them.

 

[toLiJC]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

Does anyone else find it odd that Christians would argue that is so? And how do they do that when they're saying that about themselves first?

I would think a Christian forum believes itself to at all times present the image of God and Christ to anyone who reads its pages. A ministry of sorts that is there to inform those who are not Christian about that faith should they happen on the site.

What impression does it give when Christians believe they are to preach the gospel so that all may be saved from their sins, and then post threads that tell people that should they accept Christ and be redeemed they're actually not secure in that salvation like they thought?

salvation is (necessary) here and now, because there is an inevitable circle of life and existence - a natural, universal mechanism that transposes the souls periodically as to the(ir) eternal positions/personalities, because (the) eternity is both periodic and endless, for there was ever an end of life followed by a next beginning, so (the) eternity is like a perpetually revolving wheel that makes full revolutions endlessly rotating at a constant speed, and God is the controller of that process - the One Who sets it for the good of the souls so that they may have as good lives as possible for the longest possible time, because there is also "darkness" in the universe, which is the wicked "god" that also wants to reign over the souls and (to) rule the universe, and if God could uphold life in heaven/paradise for all the time's infinity so that it may never stop, then all souls that had to be born in this world and turned out to be under sin and impact of death would instead remain in heaven/paradise, but here is how so many of them have turned out to be down for the last about 5-6 millennia, and the true God is not guilty of that, because the cause of the end was not Him, for He also had (against His will) to go through an end, or as He Himself says: "I am the beginning and the end", i.e. the first one that arose in the beginning and the last one that will have to undergo a transition in the end, and ever after the end there is a next beginning when He again arises - the transition He undergoes, which happens (against His will) in the time between the end and the next beginning of (the) eternity, because He also has a lifespan, though there is no complete death for Him, so this means there is an end of eternal life in heaven/paradise, though one single (cycle of) eternity may turn out to be of thousands or even millions of calendar years, but this doesn't mean certain souls won't continue to live their eternal lives in heaven/paradise as from the beginning of the next (cycle of) eternity, which is possible for them (to have it) mostly in the form of Holy Angels of God, but the process of eternal shift in souls' position as to the(ir) eternal personalities little by little(eternity by eternity) makes some of those who won the eternal reward lose their eternal lives in the course of time, because they turn out to be in decline at some point of the eternal circle of life and existence

that is why there's a need that we work for overall salvation in the true God, the Heavenly Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, otherwise, the more souls remain unsaved and suffer, the more we will be hurt in future eternities, because (the) eternity is like one movie that repeats for ever and ever, for all events of (the) eternity that already occurred remain the same for the next/future eternities and will repeat in exactly the same way and order like the scenes of one movie in its repeats, only the souls will alternate the(ir) (eternal) positions/personalities...

Blessings

 

[Cearbhall]

What impression does it give when Christians believe they are to preach the gospel so that all may be saved from their sins, and then post threads that tell people that should they accept Christ and be redeemed they're actually not secure in that salvation like they thought?

Well, I was raised in Catholicism, in which you're doomed to Hell if you have any mortal sins that you're not sorry for, so it doesn't seem strange to me that they don't think they've got a spot reserved up there...

It's actually very reassuring to me when a theist doesn't think they have a free pass to say/do whatever they want just because they're a "believer."