Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

[Rhamiel]

when there is evidence that they could be wrong!

what evidence did you find?
I have not seen a lot of evidence, I have seen a lot of "what if this?! or that!?"

Its not the 'whole' of the church that i have issues with. Only 'parts' of it. Thing is, those parts have grown!

this sounds more substantive
what is it that you are having issues with?

I am sorry, but a lot of this seems like grasping at straws "what if they are right?"
what if Muslims are right? what if the moon is made of green cheese? what if the pagan Greeks were right and Zeus throws down thunderbolts at those who displease him...

a lot of your "what if they are right" are based around a kind of low church Protestantism
so what makes you question if these are correct but not if the pagan Greeks are correct?

I do not mean to be uncharitable
but you throw up a list with all these diverse issues on it, a list that you did not make up, a list that has been proven to have wrong dates

so that makes me assume that the list is not the real issue, that something is bothering you and you are using this list as justification

now i can sit around pulling leaves off a stem, or we can strike at the root of the matter, what issues have come up that have distressed you so?

But............St Peter was married!

what was his wifes name?
where is she mentioned in the Gospels or Acts, or where is his marriage used as an example of anything?
it is possible she died well before Peter ever even met Jesus

 

[topcare]

How?

Paul didnt say priests could not marry...........Plus, priests were married in the Latin church were they not?

Also, St Peter was married!

St. Paul said it was better not to marry. What's better to give one's whole life in service of God or half their life? Remember Celibacy in the Catholic Church is a discipline not a doctrine. It seems that you are falling for evangelical/fundamentalist lies.

 

[Winken]

@antletems........

Your endless list of "what if" questions causes me to wonder who you have been talking to........where are you getting your information? There is One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God & Father of us all, presenting Himself as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There is One solution to your questions (doubts? fears?) and He is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is constantly interceding for you once you have confessed faith, hope and trust in Him as Savior (Romans 10:8-13). He is not going to leave you malingering in a whirlpool of doubt/fears. He is the Way, the Truth, the Life. He does not argue and debate. He does not withhold Truth. Those of us who sin (and we are many) are offered restoration of fellowship in 1 John 1:9. Thereafter, we do not drift into the quicksand of questioning Him. You can get 1,000 (or more) insights here, yet He is always present, always listening. He IS insight! Go to Him.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It seems that you are falling for evangelical/fundamentalist lies.

What lies if I may ask?

 

[Winken]

St. Paul said it was better not to marry. What's better to give one's whole life in service of God or half their life? Remember Celibacy in the Catholic Church is a discipline not a doctrine. It seems that you are falling for evangelical/fundamentalist lies.

Evangelical/fundamentalist distortions, heretical observations, perhaps, but not lies. They are known as denominations, each branching out with their own philosophy, for want of a better word. Please note that this does not include the authentic Body of Christ.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the congregations as seven...

Messianic - Beginning with Peter
Gentile - Beginning with Paul
Orthodox - Beginning with Constantine
Catholic - Beginning with Charlemagne - debatable - I do consider the Catholic church part of the Christian church
Protestant - Beginning with Martin Luther - Helped with many earlier reformers
Revived - Beginning with John Wesley - Helped with many earlier reformers, such as John Bunyan
Charismatic - Beginning with DL Moody - The first to get rich off ministry

My advice is to be a good member of whatever church the Lord has called you into. If God has called you to be a Catholic, be a good Catholic. All churches have their issues, in which I believe this to be the Laodicean church age, the issue is of lukewarmnesss. The lukewarm attitude is a problem for all seven congregations. I doubt that you find a church that you will feel totally without issues.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Please note that this does not include the authentic Body of Christ.

And that would be.......?

 

[Winken]

And that would be.......?

Each individual living out the parameters I posted in 163.

 

[Rhamiel]

Each individual living out the parameters I posted in 163.

that is an overly individualistic view
we can see form the fact that many of the Epistles were written to the entire local church in an area that the Church is a visible institution founded by Jesus with a hierarchy that started with the Apostles and then branched off into Deacons, Elders (Priests) and Bishops

 

[rockytopva]

Where.... Where does it state that a single figure on earth is to head the church?

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. - 1 Corintheans 1

I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. - 1 Corinthians 11

The head of every man is Christ... Not some human figure!

 

[topcare]

What lies if I may ask?

The list he posted.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

The list he posted.

Come on the list is bunk simple as that...
"Mary worship" - I mean come on will you?!
Why even bother to read up on your own catechism before buying into this nonsense I say.
I hope a lazy copy/ paste job is the explaination...

About the Hagiography the list reffers to it as "Praying to the dead" - Again as Catholic Im a bit dissapointed that you simply copy/ paste this as you should know as Catholics we dont consider the saints to be dead at all...

 

[Winken]

that is an overly individualistic view we can see form the fact that many of the Epistles were written to the entire local church in an area that the Church is a visible institution founded by Jesus with a hierarchy that started with the Apostles and then branched off into Deacons, Elders (Priests) and Bishops

Overly individualistic? Biblically, divine revelation in Paul's Letters, it is spot on. It does not need ancient Greek philosophers or theologians to "get it right." It does not require apostolic succession. We have no "leaders." We have our Savior.

Hebrew folk in the Hebrew Bible were chosen as a group. Abraham was chosen to lead the group. Since the Cross each person is ministered to by the Holy Spirit (called), and each has the opportunity to respond, no groups involved. Each response is a confession of faith in Jesus as Savior, Romans 10:8-13. That one becomes a member of the Body of Christ. Each individual becomes the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. That standing in Him can never be taken away or lost. There is no earthly hierarchy whatsoever. No one on earth has the "right" to forgive sins. John 3:16-17. John 5:24.

Those of like faith seek and welcome the new convert. One who has thusly been Spiritually Birthed now seeks those of like faith. That's where the rub comes in. Only when each is guided by the Holy Spirit will each find those of like faith. Yes, there are assemblies but membership in an assembly in no wise equals the Body of Christ. One who does not reconcile points of view in the assembly with the Truth made available by the Holy Spirit is boating without a rudder, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

 

[Job8]

we can see form the fact that many of the Epistles were written to the entire local church in an area that the Church is a visible institution founded by Jesus with a hierarchy that started with the Apostles and then branched off into Deacons, Elders (Priests) and Bishops

If you think about this carefully, the epistles were certainly written to entire local churches, but each of these churches were in different locations. So the Church could NOT be a visible entity. Furthermore, some within these churches were false brethren, false teachers, false apostles, and false prophets. So they would automatically be excluded from the Church (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body) even though they were within the local bodies.

Thus we see that the NT speaks of the Church [the Body, Bride, and Building of Christ (an invisible entity since Christ is the Head, and each believer is a member regardless of location)], and then churches in various locations.

As to a hierarchy, again the NT churches had NO HIERARCHY. The elders (also called bishops, and functioning as pastors) were the spiritual leaders and shepherds (all on the same plane) and the deacons were the ones looking after the temporal affairs of the churches. And all believers are king-priests, hence no man-made priesthood (and no Levitical priesthood either).

 

[civilwarbuff]

The list he posted.

Could you pls point me to them; I don't seem to see it.....

 

[topcare]

Could you pls point me to them; I don't seem to see it.....

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...us-wanted-or-not.7948102/page-3#post-69662276

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

you just beat me to it Topcare boy

 

[civilwarbuff]

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...us-wanted-or-not.7948102/page-3#post-69662276

Thx, I came in late and skipped several pages.....

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Thx, I came in late and skipped several pages.....

We all commit that sin from time to time