Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

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rockytopva

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St Paul does not say that they MUST be a member of one wife, but rather they have only ever been a husband of one wife, which speaks of their character and faithfulness.

Like I wrote the two authors of most of the NT were both celibate.


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I wish the Catholic church well. In reading the bible...

1. To be the husband of one wife and hold a leadership position in the church is to do well...
2. To remain celibate and hold a position in the church is also to do well...

The Christ said...

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. - Matthew 19:10-12

I do not believe that all men can handle celibacy. I also read that the scripture allows for leaders in the church both married and celibate. For the Catholic church I would recommend....

1. Celibacy - For the Cardinals, Monks, Nuns, and the Pope.
2. Married life - For all other leaders.

This structure would not contradict scripture and would work well for the church.
 
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Erose

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Quote from Luke and John please?
Seriously? All you got to do is read the first few chapters of Mathew and Luke to see the Blessed Mother mentioned. The Wedding Feast of Cana and Christ on the cross in John as well. The Blessed Mother is mentioned a good bit.

But, they did not say one should not marry though!

St Peter was married
You do realize that celibacy among the clerics is a practice right? Not doctrine. There are married priests especially in the Eastern Churches and even some in the Roman Church.




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1. Celibacy - For the Cardinals, Monks, Nuns, and the Pope.
2. Married life - For all other leaders.

This structure would not contradict scripture and would work well for the church.

As found in the Orthodox communion and in the eastern rites of the Catholic Church.

As I said in this very thread celibacy among priests is a dicipline restricted to the Latin Church only.
It's not an absolute in the church as a whole, but only for the Roman rite.

Btw a little clarification;
Priest cannot marry in either of the churches be that Orthodox or Catholic.
What happens when said church have a married minister is that the priest got married prior to his ordination.
 
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Erose

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I wish the Catholic church well. In reading the bible...

1. To be the husband of one wife and hold a leadership position in the church is to do well...
2. To remain celibate and hold a position in the church is also to do well...

The Christ said...

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. - Matthew 19:10-12

I do not believe that all men can handle celibacy. I also read that the scripture allows for leaders in the church both married and celibate. For the Catholic church I would recommend....

1. Celibacy - For the Cardinals, Monks, Nuns, and the Pope.
2. Married life - For all other leaders.

This structure would not contradict scripture and would work well for the church.

Ok your opinion, I don't think so. There are a lot of advantages to having a celibate clergy, as St. Paul said about those like him that they give their all to Christ. One married cannot do this.


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tz620q

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Ok your opinion, I don't think so. There are a lot of advantages to having a celibate clergy, as St. Paul said about those like him that they give their all to Christ. One married cannot do this.


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Erose, I think rockytopva is not condemning the celibate Catholic priesthood, which to me is a good start to understanding. He is merely saying that in his experience, his church leaders have been married and it works in the churches he is familiar with. I don't think many that are outside the Catholic Church and most that are inside understand the all consuming aspects of being a Catholic priest. Masses are daily, every priest is required to say the liturgy of the hours in the morning and evening. There are funerals, weddings, baptisms, confirmations, confessions, visits to the sick and dying, visits to parishioner's homes for dinner or to do blessings, administrative work, preparation for homilies, and on and on. It is a job that requires dedication of one's total self. Frankly, I don't see how a wife would not resent being second fiddle all of the time. I am not a Catholic priest; but through observing their lives I marvel at how they get it all done.
 
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rockytopva

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And I do consider seven congregations of the Christian church...

Messianic - Beginning with Peter
Gentile - Beginning with Paul
Orthodox - Beginning with Constantine
Catholic - Beginning with Charlemagne - debatable - I do consider the Catholic church part of the Christian church
Protestant - Beginning with Martin Luther - Helped with many earlier reformers
Revived - Beginning with John Wesley - Helped with many earlier reformers, such as John Bunyan
Charismatic - Beginning with DL Moody - The first to get rich off ministry


I would say that these churches are pretty well set in their ways. My dad keeps his TV on Word of Faith programming, and then gets in trouble for trying to bring some of those teachings to his Lutheran church. I caution him on this all the time. It may be some of the tenets of these congregations will not change during these church ages and may be better left alone.

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

I believe that the Christ walks in the midst of all seven candlesticks. I would not want to go to a Messianic, Orthodox, Catholic, or a denominational Protestant church and start teaching the Wesleyan Pentecostal doctrine I believe in. When going to a church outside my congregation I normally just sit quietly and enjoy the service.

So my advice here would be when in Rome, do as the Romans!
 
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dzheremi

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That list has many things that dont add up. Ok, the dates might be out but not by much!

I know this thread is not ultimately about the quality of some list you found, but doesn't the fact that it is off by several hundred years on many basic things as I already demonstrated make it at least a little bit suspicious? And what of how it assumes that the Roman Catholic Church had power to invent and impose things on the rest of the Church, even when we're talking about churches that had their own heirarchies since the time of the apostles (e.g., the churches of Antioch, Greece, Cyprus, Egypt, Armenia, Mesopotamia, and others which were founded by either one of the twelve or one of the seventy)? Isn't also a little weird? If the RCC supposedly invented all of these things and then imposed them on others, then why are some of them not found in most/any other churches? My Church does not command priests to be unmarried and celibate, and never has. Neither does the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Church of the East (Nestorians), or most Protestants.

It is odd to me that such a list intended to make the Roman Catholic Church out to be the corruptor of all Christianity includes things that only it (not the rest of Christianity) does or believes, like mandating priestly celibacy, and things that it really had no role in creating or shaping until it received them from elsewhere and adapted them to its own circumstances and cultures, like monasticism.

Bishops were allowed to be married so why did the church then say no a few hundred years later?

This article may help you, though it's not written from a Roman Catholic perspective (it is from the Antiochian Orthodox Church, an EO church). As stated there, it was the practice of the Church (as a whole, not just Rome in particular) to have married bishops (and in my own Church, even one of our Patriarchs was married, HH St. Demetrios -- we don't shy away from this fact), but it was also the practice for all the churches in the East and the Orient (that is to say, most apostolic churches period) except possibly the Armenians (according to the article; I don't know anything about Armenian Church canons or practice myself) to draw from among the monastics when choosing candidates for the Episcopacy. As there have never been married monks, for obvious reasons (though plenty are widowed), this has in practice created a system in which those traditions which are strongly inclined to monasticism (the OO and EO, basically) are thereby effectively only elevating unmarried men to the rank of bishop. This has been formalized over the centuries, though it is not without criticism or a call to return to the practice of having married bishops in some cases (the article mentions Archbishop Iakovos of the Greek Orthodox Church calling for such a return; I am unaware of any such figures in my own church, but it's certainly possible given the historical precedent, if it weren't for the fact that tradition has developed otherwise since very early as well, so it is unlikely to change when it has already served us so well since about the fourth century).

As to why the Roman Catholic Church in particular does not allow such things when they don't have the preexisting practice of choosing their bishops from among monastics, I don't know. I can only assume that it is following the reasoning (also common in the East, as it is found in the Fathers) that the unmarried clergy (priest, bishop, archbishop) are assumed to be dedicating their lives/consecrating themselves completely to God.

Mary was not even mentioned the way she is now in the Bible or for many many years after the Apostles died!

Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" (John 19:27)

There are Roman Catholic-specific excesses (from an Orthodox POV, of course) in this area that are just as unexplainable and indefensible to me as they would be to most other non-Catholics, but regarding what we hold in common (which is still quite a lot of the more basic stuff), it was in fact common and entirely uncontroversial to speak of her in exalted terms even before the councils mandated that it be believed that she is Theotokos (not just Christotokos, as the hated Nestorius and his followers claim). This is, in fact, part and parcel in the development of the Alexandrian tradition of Biblical hermeneutic (whether concerning St. Mary specifically or not) which developed since the days of the Catechetical School at Alexandria (the first of its kind in the entire world, and according to Coptic tradition, established by St. Mark himself while in Egypt; even the written records show deans going back to the middle of the second century or so), and it is from such readings that many of our hymns to her gain their shape and unique character. Were St. Mary not exalted and honored above all others as the pride of our race, then many of our connections as Christians to the Old Testament would be lost. It is not just "Mary is obedient", "Mary carried Jesus", and other surface-level understandings of what she did -- it is in the identification of her with the gates of Jerusalem (and Jerusalem itself), the tabernacle, the ark, and so forth that we can understand how our own fathers understood Christ to be prefigured in the Bible. Since so much of this thread is concerning how the Roman Catholic Church apparently opposes the Bible, I would think that this would be important. The NT Biblical canon of 27 books used by the entire Christian world without exception (even though some have more, as the Ethiopians do, none have less; historically, all have taken this list as their base) was first promulgated by HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, the twentieth Pope of Alexandria, in his 39th festal letter written in 367 (it was later confirmed in the Latin Church in particular by the Synod of Carthage in 382). So the person you have literally to thank for our having the Bible as we do now would have read the Bible in this way, as it is the long-established tradition of his Church.

So it is extremely unwise and impoverished to disregard St. Mary in any way, and doubly so to do so by attempting to shield such concerns in fidelity to the Bible! Those who established our ways of understanding it and even established what it is did no such thing. They all glorified St. Mary, as we are all to do, and did not set that veneration up against the Bible which they canonized.

 
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Goatee

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I think I am getting a take on your situation and please forgive me if I am off base; but we are roughly the same age and I am battling some of the same demons. I reached a time in my life when I looked back and saw all the terrible things I had done. I felt like Marley's Ghost in "The Christmas Carol", weighed down by all the chains I had forged. It seemed like going forward took so much effort. I didn't have the zeal for Christianity that I once had, the flames had burned down to mere embers.

For me the first step was to leave the chains of my past in the confessional. This took off some of the burden; but didn't ignite the fire again. So I started associating with people in my church that seemed to have that fire. Soon I was doing more in the church and was being asked to do even more. When I found that people were looking to me as a source for that fire, I had to look deeper and understand that that fire was never from me. It had never been from me. So now when I have doubts or feel complacent or need to grab some of that fire, I turn to the Holy Spirit and ask for His help. Time and again, I find the words to speak to people or an answer to my doubts or just something to be grateful for. I hope this helps you. I am still in the fray and will be for the rest of my life on earth; but then I think that is the way it should be.

I am asking God for guidance. I used used to be active in the church but stopped when i committed Adultery. I have been to confession tons of times and attend mass every week, sometimes more.

I am searching and seeking.

I have had these niggling doubts for a very long time! I am sure i am being told to seek out the truth!
 
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Goatee

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I know this thread is not ultimately about the quality of some list you found, but doesn't the fact that it is off by several hundred years on many basic things as I already demonstrated make it at least a little bit suspicious? And what of how it assumes that the Roman Catholic Church had power to invent and impose things on the rest of the Church, even when we're talking about churches that had their own heirarchies since the time of the apostles (e.g., the churches of Antioch, Greece, Cyprus, Egypt, Armenia, Mesopotamia, and others which were founded by either one of the twelve or one of the seventy)? Isn't also a little weird? If the RCC supposedly invented all of these things and then imposed them on others, then why are some of them not found in most/any other churches? My Church does not command priests to be unmarried and celibate, and never has. Neither does the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Church of the East (Nestorians), or most Protestants.

It is odd to me that such a list intended to make the Roman Catholic Church out to be the corruptor of all Christianity includes things that only it (not the rest of Christianity) does or believes, like mandating priestly celibacy, and things that it really had no role in creating or shaping until it received them from elsewhere and adapted them to its own circumstances and cultures, like monasticism.



This article may help you, though it's not written from a Roman Catholic perspective (it is from the Antiochian Orthodox Church, an EO church). As stated there, it was the practice of the Church (as a whole, not just Rome in particular) to have married bishops (and in my own Church, even one of our Patriarchs was married, HH St. Demetrios -- we don't shy away from this fact), but it was also the practice for all the churches in the East and the Orient (that is to say, most apostolic churches period) except possibly the Armenians (according to the article; I don't know anything about Armenian Church canons or practice myself) to draw from among the monastics when choosing candidates for the Episcopacy. As there have never been married monks, for obvious reasons (though plenty are widowed), this has in practice created a system in which those traditions which are strongly inclined to monasticism (the OO and EO, basically) are thereby effectively only elevating unmarried men to the rank of bishop. This has been formalized over the centuries, though it is not without criticism or a call to return to the practice of having married bishops in some cases (the article mentions Archbishop Iakovos of the Greek Orthodox Church calling for such a return; I am unaware of any such figures in my own church, but it's certainly possible given the historical precedent, if it weren't for the fact that tradition has developed otherwise since very early as well, so it is unlikely to change when it has already served us so well since about the fourth century).

As to why the Roman Catholic Church in particular does not allow such things when they don't have the preexisting practice of choosing their bishops from among monastics, I don't know. I can only assume that it is following the reasoning (also common in the East, as it is found in the Fathers) that the unmarried clergy (priest, bishop, archbishop) are assumed to be dedicating their lives/consecrating themselves completely to God.



Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" (John 19:27)

There are Roman Catholic-specific excesses (from an Orthodox POV, of course) in this area that are just as unexplainable and indefensible to me as they would be to most other non-Catholics, but regarding what we hold in common (which is still quite a lot of the more basic stuff), it was in fact common and entirely uncontroversial to speak of her in exalted terms even before the councils mandated that it be believed that she is Theotokos (not just Christotokos, as the hated Nestorius and his followers claim). This is, in fact, part and parcel in the development of the Alexandrian tradition of Biblical hermeneutic (whether concerning St. Mary specifically or not) which developed since the days of the Catechetical School at Alexandria (the first of its kind in the entire world, and according to Coptic tradition, established by St. Mark himself while in Egypt; even the written records show deans going back to the middle of the second century or so), and it is from such readings that many of our hymns to her gain their shape and unique character. Were St. Mary not exalted and honored above all others as the pride of our race, then many of our connections as Christians to the Old Testament would be lost. It is not just "Mary is obedient", "Mary carried Jesus", and other surface-level understandings of what she did -- it is in the identification of her with the gates of Jerusalem (and Jerusalem itself), the tabernacle, the ark, and so forth that we can understand how our own fathers understood Christ to be prefigured in the Bible. Since so much of this thread is concerning how the Roman Catholic Church apparently opposes the Bible, I would think that this would be important. The NT Biblical canon of 27 books used by the entire Christian world without exception (even though some have more, as the Ethiopians do, none have less; historically, all have taken this list as their base) was first promulgated by HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, the twentieth Pope of Alexandria, in his 39th festal letter written in 367 (it was later confirmed in the Latin Church in particular by the Synod of Carthage in 382). So the person you have literally to thank for our having the Bible as we do now would have read the Bible in this way, as it is the long-established tradition of his Church.

So it is extremely unwise and impoverished to disregard St. Mary in any way, and doubly so to do so by attempting to shield such concerns in fidelity to the Bible! Those who established our ways of understanding it and even established what it is did no such thing. They all glorified St. Mary, as we are all to do, and did not set that veneration up against the Bible which they canonized.


Thank you. Good post.

Look, i love Mary dearly. I am just questioning things. I say the Rosary every day. I hope she forgives me for pointing out these issues i have but i do feel drawn to asking them.

Answers like yours above help tremendously.
 
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Goatee

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Seriously? All you got to do is read the first few chapters of Mathew and Luke to see the Blessed Mother mentioned. The Wedding Feast of Cana and Christ on the cross in John as well. The Blessed Mother is mentioned a good bit.

You do realize that celibacy among the clerics is a practice right? Not doctrine. There are married priests especially in the Eastern Churches and even some in the Roman Church.




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What is mentioned in the Bible is not how the veneration to Our Blessed Mother has developed. But, as i said above, i love Mary and am just looking for answers to my inner issues.
 
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Goatee

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Ok your opinion, I don't think so. There are a lot of advantages to having a celibate clergy, as St. Paul said about those like him that they give their all to Christ. One married cannot do this.


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But............St Peter was married!
 
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Erose

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What is mentioned in the Bible is not how the veneration to Our Blessed Mother has developed. But, as i said above, i love Mary and am just looking for answers to my inner issues.

Not to be picky and please don't take my language as being uncharitable, but I was answering your question, which was "Why isn't Mary mentioned by the Apostles?" But on your next point read how St Elizabeth addressed our Mother when she came to her.


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Goatee

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Not to be picky and please don't take my language as being uncharitable, but I was answering your question, which was "Why isn't Mary mentioned by the Apostles?" But on your next point read how St Elizabeth addressed our Mother when she came to her.


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I know but the Veneration to Mary is in all probability way outside what was first mentioned in the NT. It has grown massively in every way. I am not saying that is bad as i love Mary (Look at my sig).
 
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Goatee

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No it is because one should give their whole life to God and when they are married they are torn between God and Spouse

One can do a lot of good if married and a Deacon for example. Plus, married priests coming into the Catholic church still do 'just as good' as non married! It takes a special spouse to be there and help etc.

And of course, if St Peter could do what he did while married then that sets a superb example to others!
 
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topcare

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One can do a lot of good if married and a Deacon for example. Plus, married priests coming into the Catholic church still do 'just as good' as non married! It takes a special spouse to be there and help etc.

And of course, if St Peter could do what he did while married then that sets a superb example to others!

Yet Scripture itself disagrees with you.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Yet Scripture itself disagrees with you.
Most Protestant Pastors are married and you find that their spouse is just as dedicated to Messiah and His Church as their husband. Sometimes, you do get 2 for the price of 1.....so to speak.....
 
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Goatee

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Yet Scripture itself disagrees with you.

How?

Paul didnt say priests could not marry...........Plus, priests were married in the Latin church were they not?

Also, St Peter was married!
 
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