Has the Catholic Church become the church that Jesus wanted or not?

[Goatee]

One they did, read Luke, read John. Concerning praying (spiritual communication) to her, it is highly likely that she was alive during much of the writing of the NT. When the Holy Spirit descended upon her and the rest of the Church on the day of Pentecost, she would have been what 45-48 years old?

On the bishops, he did not imply that bishops SHOULD be married, but rather is they are it should only be to one wife. If bishops SHOULD be married, then I guess Paul and St. John at least couldn't have been bishops, and thus not Apostles.

Quote from Luke and John please?

But, they did not say one should not marry though!

St Peter was married

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Quote from Luke and John please?

But, they did not say one should not marry though!

St Peter was married

Celibacy is a disipline in the Latin church, but not in the other rites in communion with Rome.
The celibacy rule could in theory change as its as I said a "church disipline" and its not a part of the deposit of faith.

Changing a milenna long custom isnt something that should be done lightly however and the reasons for such a drastic change should be heavy weightning.

The idea behind celibacy among clergy is that a minister of the Sacraments is married to the Christ, the bride of Christ.
He are to spend his whole life in this ministry and the taking of a wife would only be seen as a disturbance of his true calling.

Its like this, in the same way that some are called to marriage or religious life some are called to be priests.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

About the "Deposit of faith" as I mentioned above.
The Catholic communion (which is a far better description of it than referring to the communion as the RCC only) are united in faith.
We believe in the same doctrine and dogmas (as are binding to the catholic communion as a whole), but our communion consists of many different churches.

Each Church has its own Disiplines and should be very independent in most ways.
While faithful to Rome and the Supreme Pontiff they may minister the sacraments freely according to their own canon law and according to their own liturgical tradition.

Divine Liturgy is to be held in say the Byzantine rite as a fully valid "mass".

 

[tz620q]

This makes a lot of sense to me

I don't see a dichotomy here. Of course Peter's faith was an important part of this exchange in Matthew 16. Faith is a gift from God. It seems that the revelation that Jesus was truly the Son of God was given first to Peter. In the Old Testament we see the priesthood being bestowed on Aaron and his ancestors by the sprouting of a staff. Is it that hard to believe that the priesthood in the NT was bestowed on Peter and his successors by this revelation from God?

Lets look closely at this chapter. Jesus asks two questions. First, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”. This is a non-specific question that could have as easily been asked by any Rabbi at that time, since the concept of Son of Man was a common idea then. The second question is much more personal, “Who do you say I am?” This demands a response that reveals how one sees the questioner. Peter, in an incredible leap of faith, answers first "The Messiah", which was another common term used at that time for a prophesied King of the Jews to come and liberate them. Now he applies that to Jesus. Then he goes on to say something that was a true revelation, "the Son of the living God". The thought that the Messiah could be the Son of God as well as the Son of Man is unprecedented. Jesus rightly sees that Peter, by himself, could not have come up with this, only by a revelation from God. He rightly sees that not only has he (the Son) chosen Peter as an Apostle; but that God, the Father has ratified that decision with a revelation. Then he does something that has several other precedents in Scripture when someone is given a mission from God. He changes Simon's name to Cephas (Peter in Aramaic). So we have all the hallmarks that we have seen in the Bible before when someone is called by God, the test of faith, the answer in true faith, the pronouncement by God that He is pleased with the answer, and finally changing of the persons name to something relating to his new mission.

 

[EmmaCat]

Dang, I like that! I learned something new!

All the Catholics I know are wonderful people; they must have a ton of knowledge like this in their hearts and minds. I hope the Catholic Church is what Jesus wanted.

All good things
Emmy

 

[chevyontheriver]

Look at the list i produced. Lots of things just dont add up. Lots of things were brought out a long time after the early church was formed!

That list itself doesn't add up. Do yourself a favor and ditch the list. The list itself is a fable.

Paul said Bishops should Marry. Then the church said no! Who was right?

And what was Paul's wife's name? Oh, he wasn't married himself. Paul intended that bishops be chosen from men that have at most one wife. But that gets twisted around by people who want to twist things around. And they have troubled you just as they intended to do.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The list is not my doing. It is something i found.

And I found some dog droppings out front yesterday. I didn't put them on the table. It's about the same.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Dang, I like that! I learned something new!

All the Catholics I know are wonderful people; they must have a ton of knowledge like this in their hearts and minds. I hope the Catholic Church is what Jesus wanted.

All good things
Emmy

Oh, there are so many ignorant catholics on this earth.


But then again ONE ignorant believer is one to many in my opinion...

 

[ViaCrucis]

I realize that this thread seems to have started in the Catholic forum, and specifically is in reference to the [Roman] Catholic Church. But I thought I'd offer some thoughts anyway.

I don't know if St. Augustine actually said it, or in what context, but it is attributed to him: "The Church is a harlot, and she is also my mother."*

While some see this statement as offensive because, well, it says the Church is a harlot, I've always found it to be quite beautiful in its sentiment. Just like Israel of old who frequently swooned for other gods but was called back to faithfulness time and again by God, so are we frequently found faithless and yet He is good and faithful to us. And though the Church at times may play the role of the harlot, that doesn't change the fact that the Church is Christ's chosen bride, and that she is our precious mother from whom we receive the live-giving nourishment of the Gospel. At once faithless and faithful is the Church, and we as its members simul iustus et peccator, both saint and sinner.

Is the Church the Church Jesus wanted? It could be no other way, He has built and chosen His Church and there can be no other than Christ's Church. But is she everything Christ calls her to be? Often not. But it is not our faithfulness to Christ that makes the Church Christ's very own, rather it is His faithfulness. We are frequently Gomer, betraying the One who loves us. We are often Judas, betraying our Master with a kiss. And yet, "We love because He first loved us" and "If we are faithless, He is faithful, because He cannot deny Himself."

-CryptoLutheran


*Upon a little Googling this seems to be a misquote from one of Augustine's sermons where he says, "Let us honour her, because she is the bride of so great a Lord. And what am I to say? Great and unheard of is the bridegroom's gracious generosity; he found her a harlot, he made her a virgin. She mustn't deny that she was once a harlot, or she may forget the kindness and mercy of her liberator." or else actually said by Dorothy Day, "As to the Church, where else shall we go, except to the Bride of Christ, one flesh with Christ? Though she is a harlot at times, she is our Mother."

 

[Goatee]

That list itself doesn't add up. Do yourself a favor and ditch the list. The list itself is a fable.

And what was Paul's wife's name? Oh, he wasn't married himself. Paul intended that bishops be chosen from men that have at most one wife. But that gets twisted around by people who want to twist things around. And they have troubled you just as they intended to do.

I meant to say that paul does not say a Bishop should not marry

 

[Goatee]

And I found some dog droppings out front yesterday. I didn't put them on the table. It's about the same.

Obviously a bias answer. Thats why i wanted this thread to be moved so it can be open to a wider field.

 

[Goatee]

Undoubtedly the church is what Jesus started but has it made a mess of things and ended up not being what it should be?

Did Jesus 'step in' at the reformation and try to get things changed to how He wanted them? Ok, Catholics will say no. Me, i say i dont know! Still on a massive learning curve!

 

[Goatee]

That list itself doesn't add up. Do yourself a favor and ditch the list. The list itself is a fable.

And what was Paul's wife's name? Oh, he wasn't married himself. Paul intended that bishops be chosen from men that have at most one wife. But that gets twisted around by people who want to twist things around. And they have troubled you just as they intended to do.

List with info:

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/romanerr1.html

Obviously it looks like i am trying to pull the Catholic church down but no! I am trying to 'Pull apart' sections of it that confuse me so that i can better understand them or even dismiss them.

 

[ScottA]

This makes sense too. Peter had strong faith and Jesus was saying he was going to build his church on such a faith. This is how i have read it! I do believe the Catholic church have interpreted it to suit themselves!!!!

Yes, i am seeking. Yes i am still a Catholic but that doesn't stop me from searching out things that matter to me in my faith. Maybe God is telling me to do this?

Indeed, when we have the help of the Holy Spirit (the Helper) errors in doctrine will not seem right to us, even confusing, to the point that we will need to look further. Awesome!

 

[Goatee]

Indeed, when we have the help of the Holy Spirit (the Helper) errors in doctrine will not seem right to us, even confusing, to the point that we will need to look further. Awesome!

Some people dont like that though. They stick rigid to their beliefs when there is evidence that they could be wrong! I was like that. Nothing could be wrong with the Catholic faith in my eyes! Now, after quite some time thinking about these doctrines etc over many many months i decided i needed to find out more. I wanted to start this thread to see what people thought too.

I have only just started to really look into these 'issues' i have with the Catholic church. Doesn't stop me from being a Catholic. Catholic does mean universal. Its not the 'whole' of the church that i have issues with. Only 'parts' of it. Thing is, those parts have grown!

 

[tz620q]

Undoubtedly the church is what Jesus started but has it made a mess of things and ended up not being what it should be?

Did Jesus 'step in' at the reformation and try to get things changed to how He wanted them? Ok, Catholics will say no. Me, i say i dont know! Still on a massive learning curve!

When we recite the Nicene Creed we say, "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". This is known as the four marks of the Christian Church.
One - Unified, the Church on the hill, One Body, both visible in its members and invisible in the working of the Holy Spirit within her.

Holy - Set Apart, not of this world, Centered on being holy like Christ is Holy.

Catholic - The Greek kata holos means "according to the whole". This was also used to mean universal as in all the churches around the world. So the Church is a universal community of believers, not divided in belief, but distributed in geography.

Apostolic - The source of our beliefs are centered on Christ; but have been transmitted to us through the Apostles and their successors.

If you apply these four marks to Christian Churches today, how do they fare? Or is the Nicene Creed just another invention of men?

 

[Goatee]

When we recite the Nicene Creed we say, "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". This is known as the four marks of the Christian Church.
One - Unified, the Church on the hill, One Body, both visible in its members and invisible in the working of the Holy Spirit within her.

Holy - Set Apart, not of this world, Centered on being holy like Christ is Holy.

Catholic - The Greek kata holos means "according to the whole". This was also used to mean universal as in all the churches around the world. So the Church is a universal community of believers, not divided in belief, but distributed in geography.

Apostolic - The source of our beliefs are centered on Christ; but have been transmitted to us through the Apostles and their successors.

If you apply these four marks to Christian Churches today, how do they fare? Or is the Nicene Creed just another invention of men?

The creed was made by man, yes. It is Christian.

 

[ScottA]

Some people dont like that though. They stick rigid to their beliefs when there is evidence that they could be wrong! I was like that. Nothing could be wrong with the Catholic faith in my eyes! Now, after quite some time thinking about these doctrines etc over many many months i decided i needed to find out more. I wanted to start this thread to see what people thought too.

I have only just started to really look into these 'issues' i have with the Catholic church. Doesn't stop me from being a Catholic. Catholic does mean universal. Its not the 'whole' of the church that i have issues with. Only 'parts' of it. Thing is, those parts have grown!

We who are chosen, are sent. Go or stay, but do go with God.

 

[Erose]

What the bible says...

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; - 1 Timothy 3:2
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. - 1 Timothy 3:12


5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; - Titus 1:5-7

I think it a good idea to leave the leaders of the church the option to marry one wife.

St Paul does not say that they MUST be a member of one wife, but rather they have only ever been a husband of one wife, which speaks of their character and faithfulness.

Like I wrote the two authors of most of the NT were both celibate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tz620q]

The creed was made by man, yes. It is Christian.

I think I am getting a take on your situation and please forgive me if I am off base; but we are roughly the same age and I am battling some of the same demons. I reached a time in my life when I looked back and saw all the terrible things I had done. I felt like Marley's Ghost in "The Christmas Carol", weighed down by all the chains I had forged. It seemed like going forward took so much effort. I didn't have the zeal for Christianity that I once had, the flames had burned down to mere embers.

For me the first step was to leave the chains of my past in the confessional. This took off some of the burden; but didn't ignite the fire again. So I started associating with people in my church that seemed to have that fire. Soon I was doing more in the church and was being asked to do even more. When I found that people were looking to me as a source for that fire, I had to look deeper and understand that that fire was never from me. It had never been from me. So now when I have doubts or feel complacent or need to grab some of that fire, I turn to the Holy Spirit and ask for His help. Time and again, I find the words to speak to people or an answer to my doubts or just something to be grateful for. I hope this helps you. I am still in the fray and will be for the rest of my life on earth; but then I think that is the way it should be.