The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[samir]

Wow....so let me get this straight. Jesus is God because of the Trinity. Thus Mary is the mother of God. However the son is not eternal with the Father? The son was created with Mary? So much for the incarnation and the trinity....right? Please, just read what I wrote and stop throwing strawman arguments at me.

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What I'm saying is the word God can refer to the Father or the Son and although they are co-eternal what can be said about one is not always true about the other. For example, the Son has a human nature but the Father does not. So if you ask does God have a human nature the answer is yes and no. When Christians say Mary is the mother of God they mean she was the mother of the incarnated Son, not that she is the mother of the Father or the entire Trinity. I agree Mary is not the mother of God if by God you are referring to the Father or the Trinity. The whole issue is about Jesus and whether he is God and one person. No one in the early church had the same issue a few modern day Protestants (I say modern because Luther and Calvin had no problem calling Mary the mother of God) starting having about this.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Jesus started the Catholic Church(and Orthodox). Men started all the other denominations.

Last I checked, Emperor Constantine was not Jesus.

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[Thursday]

But not papal authority if Clement wasn't the pope when he wrote his epistle. .

He was the pope.

 

[Thursday]

Last I checked, Emperor Constantine was not Jesus.

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18And I tell you that you are rock, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

 

[Thursday]

But you said after one has been saved, persistent resistance gets them unsaved.

Where are verses that show that.

And how can one loose what is given in grace?

There are many verses that tell us we must endure to be saved.

What does that mean to you?

 

[Thursday]

The bolded words are false. The Corinthians had consulted the Church in Rome, and Clement's response is on behalf of the hierarchy of the Church in Rome. He never speaks for himself.

Clement, as Bishop of Rome, spoke for the Church.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

18And I tell you that you [peter] are rock [petros=little stone], and on this[Jesus] rock[petras=foundation] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Made the corrections for you. Jesus is the foundation. Peter (and all the other deciples) are the stones that are to build the church (small "c") not Roman Catholic (big "C") institution.

Jesus' words meant that Peter would have the right to enter the kingdom himself, that he would have general authority symbolized by the possession of the keys, and that preaching the gospel would be the means of opening the kingdom of heaven to all believers and shutting it against unbelievers. The book of Acts shows us this process at work. By his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:14-40), Peter opened the door of the kingdom for the first time. The expressions “bind” and “loose” were common to Jewish legal phraseology meaning to declare something forbidden or to declare it allowed.

Peter and the other disciples were to continue Christ’s work on earth in preaching the gospel and declaring God's will to men, and they were armed with the same authority as He possessed. In Matthew 18:18, there is also a definite reference to the binding and loosing in the context of church discipline. The apostles do not usurp Christ's lordship and authority over individual believers and their eternal destiny, but they do exercise the authority to discipline and, if necessary, excommunicate disobedient church members.

Christ in heaven ratifies what is done in His name and in obedience to His Word on earth. In both Matthew 16:19 and 18:18, the syntax of the Greek text makes the meaning clear. What you bind on earth will have already been bound in heaven. What you loose on earth will have already been loosed in heaven. In other words, Jesus in heaven looses the authority of His Word as it goes forth on earth for the fulfillment of its purpose.

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[Thursday]

Made the corrections for you. Jesus is the foundation. Peter (and all the other deciples) are the stones that are to build the church (small "c") not Roman Catholic (big "C") institution.

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Yes, Jesus did build his Church.

Thou art Cephas and on this Cephas I will build my Church.

Why did Jesus change Simon's name to Cephas?

Why did Jesus give Simon the keys to the Kingdom?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Yes, Jesus did build his Church.

Thou art Cephas and on this Cephas I will build my Church.

Why did Jesus change Simon's name to Cephas?

Why did Jesus give Simon the keys to the Kingdom?

And what ever happened to the church in the New Testament? Where did it go? Because today's institution called The Roman Catholic Church is not it!

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[samir]

What ecumenical councils represented all Christians?

There are seven ecumenical councils accepted by the Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants that defended and explained Christian teaching based on what the apostles' taught after heretics tried to corrupt it.

When a council has to be called to define something against a perceived heresy it is rather obvious the ecumenical council did not represent all Christians because there were obviously people who they disagreed with.

Are you saying the Arians who denied the divinity of Jesus were Christians? You must think Jehovah's Witnesses (who are modern day Arians) are Christians too.

I wonder do people rote learn these bad arguments? Where in the Bible doe it say Mary was a virgin all her life? If it's not in the Bible it is man made

I guess that proves sola scriptura is man made because that's not taught in the Bible either.

so all I need is for one person to show me where the Bible says MAry remained a virgin all her life.

First show us where the bible says that everything not taught in the bible is not true. Though Mary's ever virginity may not be explicitly taught, the bible does say to follow the apostles' oral traditions and the bishops appointed by God who succeed the apostles. Those bishops are unanimous that Mary remained a virgin so I will follow scripture by submitting to the bishops as scripture teaches.

I don't need a council I can see the Trinity in the Bible for myself. I'm one of those rare people who dares to use his God given right to interpret the Bible for myself.

People did that even in the early centuries and came up with a wide variety of contradictory interpretations giving us Arianism, Gnosticism, Nestorianism, etc). That's why Jesus created a church to guide us. What would you have done in the 2nd or 3rd centuries when there wasn't a Christian bible? How would you determine whether the book of Hebrews or the book of Barnabas was scripture?

 

[Thursday]

And what ever happened to the church in the New Testament? Where did it go? Because today's institution called The Roman Catholic Church is not it!

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You are mistaken. Saying it doesn't make it true. The early Church believed what the Catholic Church teaches because the early Church was the Catholic Church. When you read the views of the early Christians you don't find protestantism.

It is easy to track the Catholic Church of today back to Peter through the line of popes.

Jesus started the Catholic Church.

 

[samir]

He was the pope.

If he became the pope after he wrote his epistle he couldn't have been using papal authority when he wrote it.

 

[samir]

Yes, Jesus did build his Church.

Thou art Cephas and on this Cephas I will build my Church.

Yes, but remember Jesus built his church on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, not just Peter. It would be helpful if you could show that Jesus founded the Catholic Church and not the Orthodox Church (I'm currently trying to figure out which Church he founded).

Ephesians 2:19-20 (NKJV) "Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets"

 

[keltoi]

The Ecumenical councils are common sense and Biblical for EOs.

Not all are

BTW FYI the Westminster confession teaches infant baptism.

I don't believe I have ever indicated I have a problem with infant baptism. I'm a protestant not a Baptist.

 

[keltoi]

You must think Jehovah's Witnesses (who are modern day Arians) are Christians too.

And with words being put in my mouth for me I am done communicating with you. If you want to know what I believe ask me instead of telling me.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You are mistaken. Saying it doesn't make it true. The early Church believed what the Catholic Church teaches because the early Church was the Catholic Church. When you read the views of the early Christians you don't find protestantism.

It is easy to track the Catholic Church of today back to Peter through the line of popes.

Jesus started the Catholic Church.

And so the circle continues. Let's just both not waste anymore time and reread all each other's posts so we don't have to go around in this circle again. [emoji1]

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[Hoghead1]

Not exactly true. The trinity comes from John 1. Which is in the bible from what I remember.

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You are misunderstanding me. I sense I didn't make myself clear. The Trinity is implied in the Bible, but that's it; it is nowhere worked out in any real detail. Hence, the Trinitarian doctrines are all extra-biblical, often using terms foreign to Scripture, such as "substance," which comes from Hellenic substance metaphysics.

 

[Anguspure]

Jesus started the Catholic Church(and Orthodox). Men started all the other denominations.

To repeat what I posted earlier. The ONLY church is the Church that is founded by Christ Jesus and it is catholic and holy for:

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

We should therefore:

Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

This says nothing in favour of the church that came from Rome. This group is as guilty of the heresy (the Greek word means "a person who stirs up division") of denominilationism as anybody.

To think that the body should cast people out just because they disagree with you on some theological or philosophical issue, that has no direct bearing on Christ crucified and raised from the dead for the forgivness of sin, is just as bad as to think that one can set up a new religous denomination for the same disagreement.

We are urged to make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

We should be warned that the body of Christ cannot be split into pieces and that perhaps when we think that we can push our bretheren parts out for what ever reason we ourselves become part of the problem.

 

[samir]

To repeat what I posted earlier. The ONLY church is the Church that is founded by Christ Jesus and it is catholic and holy for:

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

That church definitely isn't Protestantism as a whole because there are many faiths within Protestantism, many of which contradict each other.

We should therefore:

Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Seems clear God wants you to remain united to the body of believers and not divide it into hundreds of denominations.

This says nothing in favour of the church that came from Rome. This group is as guilty of the heresy (the Greek word means "a person who stirs up division") of denominilationism as anybody.

To think that the body should cast people out just because they disagree with you on some theological or philosophical issue, that has no direct bearing on Christ crucified and raised from the dead for the forgivness of sin, is just as bad as to think that one can set up a new religous denomination for the same disagreement.

The early Christians had one faith (as scripture teaches) that was transmitted from Jesus though his apostles (both orally and in writing according to scripture). Those who refuse to believe that faith are not following Christ as Jesus said "he who hears you hears Me and he who rejects you rejects Me and the one who sent Me. (Lk 10:16)" Disagreeing with even one doctrine of the Christian faith is a rejection of all of it because it means the person has no faith in Christ who revealed it. Such a person does not have faith because he is merely choosing to believe whatever feels right to him instead of putting his trust in Christ. Scripture says such people are to be rejected. "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject (Titus 3:10)."

We are urged to make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Pretending that people who reject Christ are part of the body of Christ is not unity.

We should be warned that the body of Christ cannot be split into pieces and that perhaps when we think that we can push our bretheren parts out for what ever reason we ourselves become part of the problem.

Those who reject what Jesus revealed to the apostles and passed on to their successors have severed themselves from the body of Christ. I wish Luther and Calvin had heeded your warning not to attempt to split the body of Christ. What they did was very wrong and a very serious sin.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

That church definitely isn't Protestantism as a whole because there are many faiths within Protestantism, many of which contradict each other.



Seems clear God wants you to remain united to the body of believers and not divide it into hundreds of denominations.



The early Christians had one faith (as scripture teaches) that was transmitted from Jesus though his apostles (both orally and in writing according to scripture). Those who refuse to believe that faith are not following Christ as Jesus said "he who hears you hears Me and he who rejects you rejects Me and the one who sent Me. (Lk 10:16)" Disagreeing with even one doctrine of the Christian faith is a rejection of all of it because it means the person has no faith in Christ who revealed it. Such a person does not have faith because he is merely choosing to believe whatever feels right to him instead of putting his trust in Christ. Scripture says such people are to be rejected. "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject (Titus 3:10)."



Pretending that people who reject Christ are part of the body of Christ is not unity.



Those who reject what Jesus revealed to the apostles and passed on to their successors have severed themselves from the body of Christ. I wish Luther and Calvin had heeded your warning not to attempt to split the body of Christ. What they did was very wrong and a very serious sin.

Please tell me you are not part of the whole "you aren't Catholic so you are not part of the one true church so you're soul is in danger" group ....are you?

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