• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Early Church is the Catholic Church

2Timothy2:15

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2016
2,226
1,227
CA
✟78,248.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You posted falsehoods when you claimed that indulgences are for the forgiveness of sins. You are wrong.

Start with facts, then debate the issues.

Don't start with a lie.

I did not start with a lie. Here is the definition, and any way you slice it, it is paying or doing a work to have sins forgiven. Neither of which the bible tells us.

In the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, an indulgence is "a way to reduce the amount of punishment one has to undergo for sins"[1] which may reduce either or both of the penance required after a sin has been forgiven, or after death, the time to be spent in Purgatory.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".[2]

The recipient of an indulgence must perform an action to receive it. This is most often the saying (once, or many times) of a specified prayer, but may also include the visiting of a particular place, or the performance of specific good works.



Sacred inscription on the Archbasilica of St. John Lateran in Rome: Indulgentia plenaria perpetua quotidiana toties quoties pro vivis et defunctis (English trans: "Perpetual everyday plenary indulgence on every occasion for the living and the dead")
Indulgences were introduced to allow for the remission of the severe penances of the early Church and granted at the intercession of Christians awaiting martyrdom or at least imprisoned for the faith.[3] They draw on the Treasury of Merit accumulated by Christ's superabundantly meritorious sacrifice on the cross and the virtues and penances of the saints.[4] They are granted for specific good works and prayers[4] in proportion to the devotion with which those good works are performed or prayers recited.[5]
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What is persistent resistance to grace? Is not Gods grace in the free gift of which none deserves?


Grace is the gift. We choose how to respond to God's free gift of grace. If we continue to ignore God's grace and instead pursue worldly goals exclusively and without repentance we will not be saved.
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I did not start with a lie. Here is the definition, and any way you slice it, it is paying or doing a work to have sins forgiven. Neither of which the bible tells us.

You are repeating the lies. Indulgences only apply to sins that have already been forgiven.
 
Upvote 0

rakovsky

Newbie
Apr 8, 2004
2,552
558
Pennsylvania
✟82,685.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
What is persistent resistance to grace? Is not Gods grace in the free gift of which none deserves?
Basically, noncalvinist Christians teach that some people resist God, but that people should choose to accept God's gifts. Calvinism severely downgrades free will.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You are repeating the lies. Indulgences only apply to sins that have already been forgiven.
Just for clarification, what exactly is the purpose of indulgences? Is it to do something to help you forgive yourself by setting things right? Like a penance of sort? I get the point where you say indulgences are not for the forgiveness of sin because the sin is already forgiven so is it to simply help you forgive yourself so you are not living in guilt?

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Just for clarification, what exactly is the purpose of indulgences? Is it to do something to help you forgive yourself by setting things right? Like a penance of sort?

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

Indulgences are for remediating the temporal(non eternal) consequences of sin that has already been forgiven.

Yes, it is like penance, but not exactly the same.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Indulgences are for remediating the temporal(non eternal) consequences of sin that has already been forgiven.

Yes, it is like penance, but not exactly the same.
Ok. I edited my last post after you replied. Apologies.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Just for clarification, what exactly is the purpose of indulgences? Is it to do something to help you forgive yourself by setting things right? Like a penance of sort? I get the point where you say indulgences are not for the forgiveness of sin because the sin is already forgiven so is it to simply help you forgive yourself so you are not living in guilt?

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

That could be part of it, but it is also for sanctification.

Purgatory is the final sanctification that a Christian undergoes before seeing God. We must be holy to see God and most of us probably won't be completely sanctified at death. Indulgences help us with the process of sanctification.

Paul describes the process here:

1 Cor 3
11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
 
Upvote 0

2Timothy2:15

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2016
2,226
1,227
CA
✟78,248.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are repeating the lies. Indulgences only apply to sins that have already been forgiven.


Where is that in the bible? Indulgences of any kind? That makes no sense. If a sin is forgiven it is forgiven, there is nothing more to do. Furthermore, if you think you have to do something extra other than the price Jesus already paid then you are putting Jesus back on the cross each time as if his payment for sin was not enough. Please stop calling me a liar. You still have not built any point of indulgences on the bible once.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That could be part of it, but it is also for sanctification.

Purgatory is the final sanctification that a Christian undergoes before seeing God. We must be holy to see God and most of us probably won't be completely sanctified at death. Indulgences help us with the process of sanctification.

Paul describes the process here:

1 Cor 3
11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
So indulgences are a way of self sacrifice to help us to become more justified here on earth so we won't need to spend as much time in purgatory for justification. Is that correct?

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
So indulgences are a way of self sacrifice to help us to become more justified here on earth so we won't need to spend as much time in purgatory for justification. Is that correct?

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

Yes, although it is sanctification, not justification. Justification has already occurred through our salvation.
 
Upvote 0

2Timothy2:15

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2016
2,226
1,227
CA
✟78,248.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That could be part of it, but it is also for sanctification.

Purgatory is the final sanctification that a Christian undergoes before seeing God. We must be holy to see God and most of us probably won't be completely sanctified at death. Indulgences help us with the process of sanctification.

Paul describes the process here:

1 Cor 3
11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


1 Corinthians 3 has nothing to do with "indulgences"

Here is commentary

The apostle was a wise master-builder; but the grace of God made him such. Spiritual pride is abominable; it is using the greatest favours of God, to feed our own vanity, and make idols of ourselves. But let every man take heed; there may be bad building on a good foundation. Nothing must be laid upon it, but what the foundation will bear, and what is of a piece with it. Let us not dare to join a merely human or a carnal life with a Divine faith, the corruption of sin with the profession of Christianity. Christ is a firm, abiding, and immovable Rock of ages, every way able to bear all the weight that God himself or the sinner can lay upon him; neither is there salvation in any other. Leave out the doctrine of his atonement, and there is no foundation for our hopes. But of those who rest on this foundation, there are two sorts. Some hold nothing but the truth as it is in Jesus, and preach nothing else. Others build on the good foundation what will not abide the test, when the day of trail comes. We may be mistaken in ourselves and others; but there is a day coming that will show our actions in the true light, without covering or disguise. Those who spread true and pure religion in all its branches, and whose work will abide in the great day, shall receive a reward. And how great! how much exceeding their deserts! There are others, whose corrupt opinions and doctrines, or vain inventions and usages in the worship of God, shall be made known, disowned, and rejected, in that day. This is plainly meant of a figurative fire, not of a real one; for what real fire can consume religious rites or doctrines? And it is to try every man's works, those of Paul and Apollos, as well as others. Let us consider the tendency of our undertakings, compare them with God's word, and judge ourselves, that we be not judged of the Lord.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes, although it is sanctification, not justification. Justification has already occurred through our salvation.
Sorry I meant santification not justification. Anyway, I think I am beginning to understand the thought process behind indulgences. However, do you not see how even the idea that purgatory exists pretty much says that the cross was not enough? The suffering of Jesus was not enough? That not only Jesus had to suffer and die but we too also have to suffer also?

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
1 Corinthians 3 has nothing to do with "indulgences"

Here is commentary

The apostle was a wise master-builder; but the grace of God made him such. Spiritual pride is abominable; it is using the greatest favours of God, to feed our own vanity, and make idols of ourselves. But let every man take heed; there may be bad building on a good foundation. Nothing must be laid upon it, but what the foundation will bear, and what is of a piece with it. Let us not dare to join a merely human or a carnal life with a Divine faith, the corruption of sin with the profession of Christianity. Christ is a firm, abiding, and immovable Rock of ages, every way able to bear all the weight that God himself or the sinner can lay upon him; neither is there salvation in any other. Leave out the doctrine of his atonement, and there is no foundation for our hopes. But of those who rest on this foundation, there are two sorts. Some hold nothing but the truth as it is in Jesus, and preach nothing else. Others build on the good foundation what will not abide the test, when the day of trail comes. We may be mistaken in ourselves and others; but there is a day coming that will show our actions in the true light, without covering or disguise. Those who spread true and pure religion in all its branches, and whose work will abide in the great day, shall receive a reward. And how great! how much exceeding their deserts! There are others, whose corrupt opinions and doctrines, or vain inventions and usages in the worship of God, shall be made known, disowned, and rejected, in that day. This is plainly meant of a figurative fire, not of a real one; for what real fire can consume religious rites or doctrines? And it is to try every man's works, those of Paul and Apollos, as well as others. Let us consider the tendency of our undertakings, compare them with God's word, and judge ourselves, that we be not judged of the Lord.

Commentary from who?

Your opinion doesn't carry much weight here. Sorry.
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Sorry I meant santification not justification. Anyway, I think I am beginning to understand the thought process behind indulgences. However, do you not see how even the idea that purgatory exists pretty much says that the cross was not enough? The suffering of Jesus was not enough? That not only Jesus had to suffer and die but we too also have to suffer also?

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

No. Purgatory is very biblical.

Purgatory is only for the saved, and salvation is only through Jesus.

Jesus told us we must pick up our cross daily and follow him.

Does that mean that his suffering was not enough?

How about this?

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

And this,

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Hello, Thursday!
Are you open to the EO church being part of the early church? After all, the RCS officially allow EOS to commune.


Absolutely. I think we were part of one Church initially.

The dispute is about who left who, but I think we both agree that we were united for a very long time.

Also, the Catholic Church believes that all baptized Christians are part of the body of Christ(the Church), but not all are in full communion with the Church.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,133
3,090
✟405,773.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No. Purgatory is very biblical.

Purgatory is only for the saved, and salvation is only through Jesus.

Jesus told us we must pick up our cross daily and follow him.

Does that mean that his suffering was not enough?

How about this?

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

And this,

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life.

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk
 
Upvote 0

rakovsky

Newbie
Apr 8, 2004
2,552
558
Pennsylvania
✟82,685.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Absolutely. I think we were part of one Church initially.

The dispute is about who left who, but I think we both agree that we were united for a very long time.

Also, the Catholic Church believes that all baptized Christians are part of the body of Christ(the Church), but not all are in full communion with the Church.
Hello, Thursday!
What I meant was whether it can be said that the early church is today both the EO and RC churches.
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Hello, Thursday!
What I meant was whether it can be said that the early church is today both the EO and RC churches.


I'm not sure. I think we would have to say that one of us is slightly off course. Although, JPII said that we are two lungs of the same body.
 
Upvote 0