The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[rakovsky]

They are not simply praising Rome, they are stating the Catholic position with regard to the pope, which makes sense because they were Catholic!

Which sentence calls the pope infallible ?

 

[Thursday]

Which quote states your claim that the pope cannot teach heresy or is infallible.
Jesus is Lord is the Catholic position too. Calling Jesus Lord does not mean the saints accepted all the popes teachings including heresies.

The pope, when acting with the bishops, is protected from teaching error.

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)
I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

In truth we have seen that a manifest successor of the prince of the Apostles presides over the Roman Church. We truly believe that Christ has not deserted the Church here (Constantinople), for assistance from you has been our one and only aid from of old and from the beginning by the providence of God in the critical times. You are, indeed the untroubled and pure fount of orthodoxy from the beginning, you the calm harbor of the whole Church, far removed from the waves of heresy, you the God-chosen city of refuge. (Letter of St. Theodor and Four Abbots to Pope Paschal).

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Insinuating that I'm secretly a Roman Catholic is a false accusation.

What seems obvious to me is that you have relatively very little exposure to Christianity outside of your bubble.

-CryptoLutheran

I was not insinuating anything. This is what I said "Frankly the more I read your posts you appear to hold more to Catholic dogma than any other....interesting in itself."

I simply said your dogma seems to line up more. Hardly a "false accusation"






.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But the Church was unified in doctrine due to the authority of the apostles and their successors.

Unity was attained under the pope, as Jesus intended.

One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Your going by a church creed?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Yes it is. Please explain when the New Testament Church lost apostolic succession and changed its teachings.

The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. However, even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

The Roman Catholic Church may be one of the oldest church denominations but it is nowhere close to the original church found in the Book of Acts and is the furthest thing from the "one true church".

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[ToBeLoved]

That's weird. I thought unity was achieved under Jesus or under the church collectively, not an earthly leader.
After all, there were popes who got excommunicated and times between popes when there was no pope. Hence there was not unity then?

Aparently Catholics are unified under their pope rather than Jesus.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. However, even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

The Roman Catholic Church may be one of the oldest church denominations but it is nowhere close to the original church found in the Book of Acts and is the furthest thing from the "one true church".

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Pretty much. Jesus would not have people praying to Mary after He died to give us reconcilliation with Himself, Didn't see the Apostles praying to Mary. Nope.

 

[rakovsky]

The pope, when acting with the bishops, is protected from teaching error.

The pope was nor acting with the eastern bishops when he broke the church.

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)
I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

I never heard of this particular saint, so maybe he is not a leading one.
Can you show quotes from more fundamental church fathers like St John Chrysostom?
We don't automatically accept everything every saint has said.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Pretty much. Jesus would not have people praying to Mary after He died to give us reconcilliation with Himself, Didn't see the Apostles praying to Mary. Nope.

Thank you!

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[rakovsky]

Pretty much. Jesus would not have people praying to Mary after He died to give us reconcilliation with Himself, Didn't see the Apostles praying to Mary. Nope.

Well in the Bible Mary was still alive.

But even the RC church today teaches that some popes were heretics. I think it makes a stronger case.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Isn't it clear enough that in less than 1000 years the Roman Catholic Church drifted so far from the truth that the Eastern Orthodox split from it? I don't blame the EO for not wanting to go down with the ship.

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[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The pope was nor acting with the eastern bishops when he broke the church.

I never heard of this particular saint, so maybe he is not a leading one.
Can you show quotes from more fundamental church fathers like St John Chrysostom?
We don't automatically accept everything every saint has said.

I also might add that St. Augustine, one of the most influential early church fathers, rejected the idea of the Immaculate Conception and the ascension of Mary. Two dogmas that were later declared excathedra to be true by the Pope! St Augustine also believed in "predestination of the elect". Apparently it is alright for Rome to pick and choose "sacred tradition " as well as "sacred scripture".

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[rakovsky]

The pope, when acting with the bishops, is protected from teaching error.

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)
I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See (Rome), in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).
.

So in the 19th cent. When the Pope said that infallibility was a false teaching, was infallibility false like he ssid, or did the mouth of heretics prevail by rejecting a true teaching of infallibility?

 

[rakovsky]

Isn't it clear enough that in less than 1000 years the Roman Catholic Church drifted so far from the truth that the Eastern Orthodox split from it? I don't blame the EO for not wanting to go down with the ship.

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Actually it was the pope who excommunicated and split the EOS in 1054.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Actually it was the pope who excommunicated and split the EOS in 1054.

Very well, point still stands. Obviously in less that 1000 years there was such a deviation from the original church teachings that a split did in fact occur. I can only imagine what Peter would think if he saw what the RCC has become.

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[rakovsky]

Very well, point still stands. Obviously in less that 1000 years there was such a deviation from the original church teachings that a split did in fact occur. I can only imagine what Peter would think if he saw what the RCC has become.

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On certain issues the apostles might have had mind blowing positions.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Anyway, I think I have made my point that the early church is the catholic (small "c) church (small "c"). The institution that is now called the "Roman Catholic Church" (capital "c") is nowhere close to the original and is not the "early church".

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[ToBeLoved]

On certain issues the apostles might have had mind blowing positions.

Such as?

 

[rakovsky]

Such as?

Some issue that is not clear in scripture and that many Christians don't think much about.

A sign of this could be a belief that the world would end in their lifetimes. You can kind of see this in 2 Thessaloniki IIRC where Paul says that he will be with others who are not among those sleeping when Christ comes. He is a bit clear about this in the verse.

Another example could be a belief that Wisdom is its own "spirit" in the Old Testament and that the Holy Spirit was called Jesus's "mother" before the incarnation, which you can find in some mainstream 1st to 2nd cent. writings.

I think whatever the real story was with Judas might be surprising and be interesting, but not something someone hadn't thought of already, like how he died or what his full motives were.

I think that watching the Corinthians speak tongues would probably be mind blowing to many people today, because Paul said that they looked like maniacs to uninformed believers in 1 Cor 14.

 

[Thursday]

Aparently Catholics are unified under their pope rather than Jesus.

Do you accept these words of Jesus to his apostles?

Luke 10:16
16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Heb 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.