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The Early Church is the Catholic Church

2Timothy2:15

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So why does the Catholic Church contradict the very teachings of Jesus? Is GOD the same yesterday, today, and forever, yes he is. He does not change his mind.

Luke 11 27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Here we see a woman who is venerating and lifting up Mary! Look carefully to Jesus response. He actually rebukes her and corrects her saying blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus again, is not elevating Mary and is actually teaching the opposite, do not elevate Mary because that is NOT the word of GOD, rather KEEP what is written.

Yet the Catholic Church teaches the Mary is an intercessor. Yet here is what the bible says.

1 Timothy 2 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

Clearly there is ONE intercessor, not two, our intercessor is Jesus, we do not need another. Praying to Mary to intercede is not KEEPING the word it is a contradiction.

Matter of fact Mary was a human being, she was not divine, she was not born of God, she is a person just like any other, she died just like all people. Yet the RCC tells people to pray to Mary, again against scripture. So if the RCC is the authority of God on earth why does it directly contradict the very words of God? Is God the author of confusion? No

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent—everywhere at once—and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent—all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being—dead or alive—does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient—He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray, God knows our genuine needs and knows them better than we do. Not only does He know our needs, but He answers our prayers according to His perfect will.

So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence and because of what some theologians call His “immanence.” Immanence is the quality of God that causes Him to be directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15); this includes answering prayer.

Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, and eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

A person suffering in agony will not be able to hear or answer a prayer, nor will a person who is living in heavenly bliss with God. If we pray to someone and he is in eternal agony, should we expect him to be able to hear and answer our prayers? Likewise, would a person in heaven be concerned for temporal problems on earth? God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). With Jesus Christ as our mediator, we can go through Jesus to God. Why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God?
 
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Thursday

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So why does the Catholic Church contradict the very teachings of Jesus? Is GOD the same yesterday, today, and forever, yes he is. He does not change his mind.

Luke 11 27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Here we see a woman who is venerating and lifting up Mary! Look carefully to Jesus response. He actually rebukes her and corrects her saying blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus again, is not elevating Mary and is actually teaching the opposite, do not elevate Mary because that is NOT the word of GOD, rather KEEP what is written.

Yet the Catholic Church teaches the Mary is an intercessor. Yet here is what the bible says.

1 Timothy 2 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

Clearly there is ONE intercessor, not two, our intercessor is Jesus, we do not need another. Praying to Mary to intercede is not KEEPING the word it is a contradiction.

Matter of fact Mary was a human being, she was not divine, she was not born of God, she is a person just like any other, she died just like all people. Yet the RCC tells people to pray to Mary, again against scripture. So if the RCC is the authority of God on earth why does it directly contradict the very words of God? Is God the author of confusion? No

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent—everywhere at once—and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent—all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being—dead or alive—does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient—He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray, God knows our genuine needs and knows them better than we do. Not only does He know our needs, but He answers our prayers according to His perfect will.

So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence and because of what some theologians call His “immanence.” Immanence is the quality of God that causes Him to be directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15); this includes answering prayer.

Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, and eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

A person suffering in agony will not be able to hear or answer a prayer, nor will a person who is living in heavenly bliss with God. If we pray to someone and he is in eternal agony, should we expect him to be able to hear and answer our prayers? Likewise, would a person in heaven be concerned for temporal problems on earth? God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). With Jesus Christ as our mediator, we can go through Jesus to God. Why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God?


Jesus said that death will not separate us from the body of Christ. In fact, he said those who live and believe in him will never die.

Those who die in Christ are alive in Christ. They can pray for us. That's what the bible and the Church have always taught.
 
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rakovsky

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That's not the point. His heresy was not in his official capacity as pope. He did not make a heretical declaration as leader of the Church.
Pope Honorius was the official pope and he officially made an official heresy and he is officially excommunicated.
He is not the only such pope either.
 
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Thursday

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Pope Honorius was the official pope and he officially made an official heresy and he is officially excommunicated.
He is not the only such pope either.

He did not teach any heretical doctrines in his capacity as pope.

Get it yet?
 
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2Timothy2:15

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And we need to lovingly pray for the Lord to enlighten Thursday's understanding. We've all been there. Haven't we? Stuck on something we are having trouble with. Right?

Amen. Sometimes being firm and straight up is the most loving thing to do. Recall Jesus telling the rich young ruler essentially that his idol was money. Some could say that was harsh, but it was the most loving thing Jesus could have done for him, tell him the truth. It is now up to the hearer to be a true seeker of Jesus for themselves.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Jesus said that death will not separate us from the body of Christ. In fact, he said those who live and believe in him will never die.

Those who die in Christ are alive in Christ. They can pray for us. That's what the bible and the Church have always taught.

No, it does not say the dead pray for us anywhere in the bible.

What is says is

Romans 8:7Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


It says it will not separate us from the LOVE of GOD, nothing about the "church" and actually specifics which is JESUS OUR LORD. Jesus, we will not be separated from Jesus, nothing about the church, so where did you get that?
 
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tickingclocker

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You are ignoring what I write and posting gibberish.

As I said before, all people, including popes, are fallible sinners.

The Church is the creation of Christ, however, and is protected from teaching error.

I believe the words of Jesus on this matter. They seem to trouble you.

Trust the words of Jesus.
No, not gibberish, and I'm not ignoring anything. We sin. We fail. We think we can "improve" upon God's Word. What you are implying is the "church", which is comprised of earthly believers, cannot sin, and is protected from teaching error? The heart is deceitful above all else. That doesn't sound like we are perfect to me. I'll stick with you might be having a crisis of faith over a stumbling block or two.

So, I see where you might be heading with this. The Catholic church is infallible? Is that it? Well, I don't happen to think so, even while loving Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't mind that you think that. It's between you and God. Nothing to do with me. To me, the only One who is infallible, unable to sin, is Jesus Christ who is God. Infalliblity is a unique characteristic of divinity. I know I'm not divine, by any means! But I am part of the Bride of Christ, the universal church.
 
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tickingclocker

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Amen. Sometimes being firm and straight up is the most loving thing to do. Recall Jesus telling the rich young ruler essentially that his idol was money. Some could say that was harsh, but it was the most loving thing Jesus could have done for him, tell him the truth. It is now up to the hearer to be a true seeker of Jesus for themselves.
Amen. But do you think Jesus said it with any pride or anger in His heart? I think He said it with great sorrow. So very close, yet so far away. It's the worst thing a Christian can witness in the life of another.
 
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prodromos

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He did not teach any heretical doctrines in his capacity as pope.
This is the false claim of modern Catholics. Repeating it makes it no less false.
Get it yet?
Yes, we get that the heretical doctrine of the modern Catholic Church does not allow the recognition of some Popes as heretics
 
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rakovsky

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No, it does not say the dead pray for us anywhere in the bible.
This is a different issue . The martyrs in Revelation cry out, apparently posthumously.

The issue is whether even the RC church has called popes heretics.
 
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tickingclocker

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Jesus said that death will not separate us from the body of Christ. In fact, he said those who live and believe in him will never die.

Those who die in Christ are alive in Christ. They can pray for us. That's what the bible and the Church have always taught.
That's very true. Death has no power to separate us from Jesus Christ. We will never die because we have HIS eternal Spirit. Not from anything we do. We have no power of ourselves. I'm sure you know that. But to say that believers who have passed into glory can intercede for us is essentially believing that they now are "other Christ's". He is the sole Intercessor for the living (the dead no longer need an Intercessor). Do you think He needs help, that He is unable to do so by Himself, being God?

Could you provide the scriptures which you believe prove that the dead can intercede for the living? It would help us understand where you are coming from. (I am not Catholic and not aware of this belief.)

Nobody means to "gang up on you", so please don't get frustrated. I think somehow our wires were crossed.
 
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tickingclocker

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This is a different issue . The martyrs in Revelation cry out, apparently posthumously.

The issue is whether even the RC church has called popes heretics.
They cry out to GOD for their justice to be served. Not to humans, not for humans. And what does God tell them? Wait. There's more of you coming to stand underneath My altar! When every martyr has been murdered for their faith, then He will send justice to their murderers, and not until.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It is not a hate site. So exposing heresy and false doctrine is hate now? Unreal. I do not endorse everything on his site but he does have a lot of information. By the way the things he has documented about the RCC have been documented by thousands already. Calling him hateful sounds like the same thing they called those who were martyred under the first inquisition. That is right the first inquisition when millions were killed because they would not give their allegiance to the pope, very christian right...... There will be a second inquisition but this one will be under the false one world religion and those who are killed once again for the testimony of Christ will once again be called haters.

There's a whole lot there that I don't feel like unpacking. Suffice to say I'd certainly be interested how many of those "thousands" are legitimate historians and scholars. As for the rest, like I said, I don't particularly feel like going down that bunny trail by trying to unpack it all and address it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Amen. But do you think Jesus said it with any pride or anger in His heart? I think He said it with great sorrow. So very close, yet so far away. It's the worst thing a Christian can witness in the life of another.

Yes it was from Love. It is with great sorrow that I as well show Catholics many false teachings of the Catholic church. I am not doing it from anger or pride, if that is what you are insinuating.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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There's a whole lot there that I don't feel like unpacking. Suffice to say I'd certainly be interested how many of those "thousands" are legitimate historians and scholars. As for the rest, like I said, I don't particularly feel like going down that bunny trail by trying to unpack it all and address it.

-CryptoLutheran

Is your claim that there are not a ton of Christian theologians that have shown many of the false teaching of the Catholic Church? If you want to address things do it in earnest. If you want to have an discussion then do it openly. If you want to call me hateful, which is in fact what you meant because I used a website you do not agree with to put information which is historical fact (the table I posted). You called the site I used a hate site so by proxy you are calling me hateful, that is not clever but manipulative and kind of nasty to say the least. If you want to have an honest discussion that is fine but do not play the pseudo intellectual card please.
 
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tickingclocker

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Yes it was from Love. It is with great sorrow that I as well show Catholics many false teachings of the Catholic church. I am not doing it from anger or pride, if that is what you are insinuating.
No, I'm insinuating anything. Quite the opposite, so don't worry. I understand. Some people are not so nice about explaining truth for truth's sake on here is what I meant. But if they don't want to see, like the rich young ruler who walked away, sorrowful, to me its really pointless to chase after them insisting they listen like some do. Jesus didn't jump up and run after this young man. He let him go, but left him to God. Who knows? Maybe somewhere down the road the guy realized Jesus was right, and did give away all his riches like St. Francis of Assisi did? I like to hope so. God's Word never returns void.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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No, I'm insinuating anything. Quite the opposite, so don't worry. I understand. Some people are not so nice about explaining truth for truth's sake on here is what I meant. But if they don't want to see, like the rich young ruler who walked away, sorrowful, to me its really pointless to chase after them insisting they listen like some do. Jesus didn't jump up and run after this young man. He let him go, but left him to God. Who knows? Maybe somewhere down the road the guy realized Jesus was right, and did give away all his riches like St. Francis of Assisi did? I like to hope so. God's Word never returns void.


Amen, it is hard to tell tone online sometimes, just clarifying :)

I would say, Paul in Acts 20 made a point of saying he preached the full counsel of God, meaning he gave them time and he gave them all the counsel before he was innocent of their blood. I think just because someone does not want to hear the first time we should not give up. We should persevere and pray that the Father draws them to truth by the Holy Spirit and our Lord Jesus.

Consider this.

Acts 20
25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Is your claim that there are not a ton of Christian theologians that have shown many of the false teaching of the Catholic Church?.

Entirely too broad. Finding theologians who argue that Roman Catholicism has erroneous teachings is one thing. I'm talking about the sorts accusations, e.g. that calling Mary the queen of heaven goes back to Ishtar, or that the Eucharist is an "Egyptian sun wafer" (not made in this thread that I'm aware, but it is one promulgated by people like Jack Chick); that kind of nonsense remains nonsense. That's not exposing "false teachings", at best it's perpetuating ignorance, at worst it's bearing false witness and slander.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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