Old Testament saints were born again.

[ZacharyB]

There IS Salvation in the OT...

Sure, There IS Salvation in the OT...
but it is not like that in the NT with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The OT prophets had the Spirit come UPON them for ministry.
Twice, I believe, a prophet said the Spirit was INSIDE him.
But, IMO, he was mistaken ... the Spirit came UPON him.

Where is it mentioned that the average Israelite
had the Spirit INSIDE of him, thus being saved?
If the Holy Spirit INSIDE was the method of OT salvation,
surely there would have been considerable mention of it,
instead of it being a big secret.
Why a secret? ... that's ridiculous!

The great improvement of the new covenant was:
the new nature and the indwelling Holy Spirit
set believers free from sin, enabling them to
forsake sin, obey Jesus, and be overcomers.

Huge difference between the two covenants!

 

[Arsenios]

Sure, There IS Salvation in the OT...
but it is not like that in the NT with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It is identical to the indwelling in the NT...

The OT prophets had the Spirit come UPON them for ministry.
Twice, I believe, a prophet said the Spirit was INSIDE him.
But, IMO, he was mistaken ... the Spirit came UPON him.

They were saturated with the Holy Spirit...

Where is it mentioned that the average Israelite
had the Spirit INSIDE of him, thus being saved?

Elijah, Moses, Isaia, and on and on...

If the Holy Spirit INSIDE was the method of OT salvation,
surely there would have been considerable mention of it,
instead of it being a big secret.
Why a secret? ... that's ridiculous!

No secret at all...

The great improvement of the new covenant was:
the new nature and the indwelling Holy Spirit
set believers free from sin, enabling them to
forsake sin, obey Jesus, and be overcomers.

Yes... The Holy Spirit is IMPLANTED INTO you in the NT Salvation...
It is what gives us power to walk the talk...
But the New Nature, the New Creation, is our being UNITED to Christ...
Acquisition of the Holy Spirit is then a function of repentance and God's ever increasing giving of strength to those in Him - From Glory to Glory...

Huge difference between the two covenants!

Huge - From Circumcision of the Heart symbolized by that of the foreskin, to the Covenant of the Body and Blood, the very Life in us, of Christ Glorified...

Arsenios

 

[Job8]

They cannot actually have been "born again" in the sense we normally use that term, because no one was saved PRIOR to Christ's sacrifice. The OT saints awaited the Lord's Resurrection for that.

For further clarity, the OT saints were justified by grace through faith, but their spirits were perfected only after the resurrection of Christ. Hence the term "the spirits of just [justified] men made perfect" (Heb 12:23). The New Birth accompanies the New Covenant.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Enoch walked with God in such a way that was pleasing to God whereby he did not see death. This would only be possible if God regenerated and indwelled believers.

New Covenant believers are more perfect than the OT saints in the sense that the OT Saint went to war and relied upon the animal sacrifices as a temporary atonement.

Side Note:

Also, speaking of Enoch: Read Jude 1 and ask yourself who in the world are the people who feed themselves among us? Does this sound more like the person who make excuses for sin or someone who wants to serve God in holiness and truth?


...

 

[ZacharyB]

It is identical to the indwelling in the NT...
They were saturated with the Holy Spirit...
Elijah, Moses, Isaia, and on and on..

Sorry, you will have to prove from Scripture that more than
a few OT saints actually had God's Spirit INSIDE of them.
No need to prove the "saturated" part, just the INSIDE part.

Born-again believers have the Spirit indwelling them: INSIDE.
Born-again (and also Spirit-baptized) believers
have more of a saturation ... as they are Spirit-filled
with a special anointing (for ministry) from Jesus Himself.
Very few believers indeed have the revelation of this
who have not themselves been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
So, if you don't understand, it's understandable.

 

[ZacharyB]

Enoch walked with God in such a way that was pleasing to God whereby he did not see death. This would only be possible if God regenerated and indwelled believers.

Please refrain from saying what God can (and cannot) do.
News Flash:
God can do anything He wishes, to anyone He wishes,
at any time he wishes, and many etc.
And dese peoples don't need to have His indwelling Spirit to qualify.

 

[Arsenios]

God can do anything He wishes, to anyone He wishes,
at any time he wishes, and many etc.
And dese peoples don't need to have His indwelling Spirit to qualify.

Barlaam's braying donkey comes to mind...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Sorry, you will have to prove from Scripture that more than
a few OT saints actually had God's Spirit INSIDE of them.
No need to prove the "saturated" part, just the INSIDE part.

Perhaps an easy way is to simply say that they KNEW what the Holy Spirit GAVE them to know... And this was given from within them... It was not primarily an external event, but an internal one... The external ones are normally angelic, and not the Angel of Great Council... iow God normally did not appear to them and sit down with them and talk TO them where they listened audibly with their ears... they listened instead inwardly with their minds...

The Holy Spirit was well known to the Jews - Elizabeth even, the mother of John the Baptist, was filled with the Holy Spirit... Inside, presumably - I didn't ask her...

"Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit:"

Born-again believers have the Spirit indwelling them: INSIDE.
Born-again (and also Spirit-baptized) believers
have more of a saturation ...

So was Elizabeth Born-again?

as they are Spirit-filled
with a special anointing (for ministry) from Jesus Himself.
Very few believers indeed have the revelation of this
who have not themselves been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

God said: "I will have mercy on those I WILL have mercy..."

So, if you don't understand, it's understandable.

Melchidesik?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

OT saints' ... spirits were perfected only after the resurrection of Christ.

What IS that perfecting?

Arsenios

 

[Job8]

What IS that perfecting?

Arsenios

Good question. From what we know of the perfecting of the saints in the NT, it would mean that the Holy Spirit was given to all of them, and their souls and spirits were totally and supernaturally purified. That would also mean that the blood of Christ was applied to their souls, and the righteousness of Christ became their righteousness.

 

[Arsenios]

Good question. From what we know of the perfecting of the saints in the NT, it would mean that
the Holy Spirit was given to all of them,

Which they had in the OT...

and their souls and spirits were totally and supernaturally purified.

You see any of that now?

That would also mean that the blood of Christ was applied to their souls,
and the righteousness of Christ became their righteousness.

I don't see all that much of this today either...

What is it that we, the New Creation, now HAVE,
that the OT Saints did not have,
and could not have,
prior to
The Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of Christ??

This question is t.h.e. big hole in Western Holy Spirit Only Soteriology...

The answer seems so obvious to me...

Nobody has, btw, produced even one passage from Scripture that tells us that the Holy Spirit Baptizes in Himself... Nor that we are Baptized INTO the Holy Spirit...

Strange times, yes?

Arsenios

 

[brinny]

The words "circumscion of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament.

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"


...

EXCELLENT study.

I am thinking of Elijah and Enoch, as i read your post, and then there's Job. Each had "right standing" before God = righteousness. (There are others too, for instance, God Himself called Abraham His "friend" and God spoke to Moses as a "friend", it is written.)

Back to Elijah and Enoch, however, is the fact that God "took" then so to speak, in different ways.

They went to be with Him without "dying".

What this indicates to me is a "right-standing" before God, right then and there, they were "right" before God.

This verse perhaps applies to each of them.

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" ~Micah 6:8

They "WALKED" with God.

It points perhaps to the "heart condition" that you mention in many of the verses above. If they "walked" with God, their heart was "right" before Him.

This is fascinating.

Thank you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please refrain from saying what God can (and cannot) do.
News Flash:
God can do anything He wishes, to anyone He wishes,
at any time he wishes, and many etc.
And dese peoples don't need to have His indwelling Spirit to qualify.

God cannot do certain things.
We know God cannot do evil or sin.
We also know God does things a certain way for a reason, too. Could God have saved people without regenerating them and without living within them? Well, I believe babies are saved and that they do not need a regeneration to be saved. But Jesus was not talking about babies in John chapter 3. But Jesus says that no man can enter the Kingdom without being born again. I don't think God would have made another way that was different. For what could man do that would prompt God to convince Him that a person does not need to be born again?

As for spiritual life only being found in the Son: Why would God give glory to something else or someone else that was not the true source of salvation? Is it not Christ (God) our Saviour?

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

EXCELLENT study.

I am thinking of Elijah and Enoch, as i read your post, and then there's Job. Each had "right standing" before God = righteousness. (There are others too, for instance, God Himself called Abraham His "friend" and God spoke to Moses as a "friend", it is written.)

Back to Elijah and Enoch, however, is the fact that God "took" then so to speak, in different ways.

They went to be with Him without "dying".

What this indicates to me is a "right-standing" before God, right then and there, they were "right" before God.

This verse perhaps applies to each of them.

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" ~Micah 6:8

They "WALKED" with God.

It points perhaps to the "heart condition" that you mention in many of the verses above. If they "walked" with God, their heart was "right" before Him.

This is fascinating.

Thank you.

Thank you. My views on Enoch's and Elijah's destination(s) is a little different from how most Christians understand it. Yes, I believe there is a literal heaven and literal hell and lake of fire, but Elijah went to the first heaven (i.e. he was taken up into the sky - which is a parallel of Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch's narrative - for both narratives involve chariots and Phillip was transported from one place to another on the Earth, just like Elijah). Scripture also says Elijah is still alive at a later time, too. As for Enoch: I believe he was taken to Paradise which later became to be known as Abraham's Bosom (Which is in the heart of the Earth). I believe that when the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, the dead in Christ (within Abraham's Bosom) will rise first and then those who are alive will be caught up in the air to meet Jesus in His physical form. This is the first of the two spiritual resurrections. The bodily resurrection happens at a later time in two phases, as well.

...

 

[brinny]

Thank you. My views on Enoch's and Elijah's destination(s) is a little different from how most Christians understand it. Yes, I believe there is a literal heaven and literal hell and lake of fire, but Elijah went to the first heaven (i.e. he was taken up into the sky - which is a parallel of Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch's narrative). Scripture also says Elijah is still alive at a later time, too. As for Enoch: I believe he was taken to Paradise which later became to be known as Abraham's Bosom (Which is in the heart of the Earth). I believe that when the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, the dead in Christ (within Abraham's Bosom) will rise first and then those who are alive will be caught up in the air to meet Jesus in His physical form. This is the first of the two spiritual resurrections. The bodily resurrection happens at a later time in two phases, as well.

...

Interesting, and it would be an excellent study.

I suppose i was meditating on/examining their right standing before God and therefore "saved", so to speak.

Thanks.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Interesting, and it would be an excellent study.

I suppose i was meditating on/examining their right standing before God and therefore "saved", so to speak.

Thanks.

I am so glad you did such a study.
May God bless you.

Oh and updated my recent post to include two bread crumbs as to why there is a connection between Elijah being taken up into the air with Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch's narrative.


...

 

[brinny]

I am so glad you did such a study.
May God bless you.

Oh and updated my recent post to include two bread crumbs as to why there is a connection between Elijah being taken up into the air with Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch's narrative.


...

I didn't actually do that specific study, but i'm thinkin' it would be an excellent study to do

 

[ScottA]

The words "circumscion of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament.

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"


...

This is true...and yet, there is a distinction between the first and the last. Matthew 20:16

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't actually do that specific study, but i'm thinkin' it would be an excellent study to do

My apologies. I read your post a little too quick and I thought you were referencing your recent study.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is true...and yet, there is a distinction between the first and the last. Matthew 20:16

I believe there are many differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, too. But I believe there are many similarities, as well.


...