Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[keltoi]

Predestination isn't a man-made construct. What is a man-made construct is the skewed understanding of what predestination means.

Please give me some evidence to suggest God predestined, meaning he made the choice before time began, to create what is probably the biggest mess ever and let billions of people die because of it.

 

[Rick Otto]

Same for you, however God still gave us freewill and we are responsible for our own actions. Suggesting God is responsible for our behaviour isn't correct.

I am not denying personal responsibility, but if God wasn't responsible for me, He has no business judging me.

 

[keltoi]

I am not denying personal responsibility, but if God wasn't responsible for me, He has no business judging me.

Do you not acknowledge the courts of the US as being able to judge you if you break a law of the US? Are the courts of the US responsible for you?

 

[keltoi]

While Adam and Eve ate from the tree...God put the tree there. God also created satan to tempt them to eat, all which falls back to His foreknowledge. He could have simply not created them, but He did. Therefore, it is to His Will we are destined to our own nature.

There is, to me, a problem with this. God created Adam and Eve, Satan, and the Tree of Knowledge. God did not create Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, rather God created Satan as an angel to serve him and glorify him. Satan himself chose to defy God and was cast out of heaven along with his fellow fallen angels.

Yes God knew what would happen but to suggest God deliberately created Satan to do evil makes Satan look like the victim.

 

[Jan001]

The simple answer to your erroneous claim is found in the bible God's word. And yes there is a false teaching that once saved man sins no more but again the bible God's word proves that a false teaching.

1 John 1:101599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
10 If we say, we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Every person has sinned because we all inherited Adam's sin. Jesus died on the cross to atone for Adam's sin. No person could go to heaven after he died because of Adam's sin. That is why Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom instead of in heaven even though the rich man was already in hell. Jesus' death on the cross has made it possible once again for people to enter into heaven.

Romans 5:12
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned—

18 Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. rsv
​

The Christians to whom John was writing in 1 John were still sinning their own personal sins after they had been saved. Please note that these previously saved Christians still had to ask for forgiveness for their present sins in order to be forgiven them.

1 John 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. rsv​

Do You believe that Jesus died on the cross to forgive all our sins and so therefore it does not matter if we Christians continue to sin against Him? Do you believe that there are no eternal consequences for the disobedient Christian?

 

[Jan001]

As to your false doctrine we are continually saved until death God's word proves that a false doctrine

John 10:28-301599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of mine hand.
29 My Father which gave them me, is greater than all, and none is able to take them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Before the foundation of the world, God put into His hand all the people who He knew would remain faithful to His commandments until their death. God did not give to Jesus any persons who would not remain faithful to His commandments until death.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv​

1 John 5:101599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

10 He that believeth in that Son of God, hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God, hath made him a liar, because he believed not the record, that God witnessed of that his Son.

A person who grievously sins against God's commandments does not believeth in the Son of God.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.” rsv
​

A person who grievously sins against God's commandments does not have the Holy Spirit continuing to live within him.

Titus 1:15-16
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. rsv

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. rsv

​

Christians who grievously sin are denying Jesus by their sins. Jesus will deny that He knows the Christians who grievously sin.

Matthew 7:20-23
Luke 13:23-27

Romans 8:38-391599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor Angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You need to include Romans 8:1 in order to understand exactly which people cannot be separated from the love of God.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit....38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. rsv​

Ephesians 4:301599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, by whom ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If the Holy Spirit is abiding within a person at the time of his death, this person is guaranteed eternal life.

If a person deliberately and grievously sins after he is saved the Holy Spirit does not continue to abide in him. The person has outraged the Holy Spirit of grace and the Holy Spirit does not remain abiding in this person.

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv
​

The Christian who deliberately and grievously sins loses the Holy Spirit's presence within him and thereby he loses his salvation. If he does not repent before he dies, he will be condemned to hell.

The Holy Spirit's presence within a person is what guarantees the person that he will inherit eternal life when he dies. God gives the Holy Spirit to persons who obey. The Holy spirit does not remain in persons who outrage Him by their sins. These evil, unrepentant Christians will receive God's vengeance after death instead of eternal life.

​

 

[Jan001]

John 10:27-29

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
​

Before the foundation of the world, God knew which people would still be faithful to Him/His commandments until death. He predestined only these people to eternal life. He placed only these people into His hand.

Before the foundation of the world, God did not place into His hand the people who He knew would never obey.

Before the foundation of the world, God did not place into His hand the people who He knew would deny their faith when persecuted.

Before the foundation of the world, God did not place into His hand the people who He knew would neglect to bear good fruit because of their of love of worldly pleasures and riches.

Matthew 13:18-23
Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” rsv

​

Before the foundation of the world, God placed into His hand the people who He knew would bear good fruit until their death. These are His true sheep. Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Jan001]

I'm was born and raised a catholic until I read the bible and noticed all the heresy's I bought into. It was a tough road to admit I was wrong and the bible disagreed with just about everything I believed. The only way I found this out is when I was challenged to read the bible for myself to know that truth. Now you know why I take the stand I take. I belong to a baptist in which I am one of the original founders and we're a little over 11 years old. No church is perfect but as long as all the bible is taught in it's entirety it's a good place to be. Beware just because a church says it's baptist doesn't make it so because we have many around my neck of the woods that are more into feel goodism rather than teach the parts of God's word that convict our hearts.

I read the Bible for myself. I've found nothing at all in it which contradicts my Catholic faith. My own interpretation of the Bible "proves" to me that my Catholic faith is the faith of Jesus and His apostles.

However, your own interpretation of the Bible "proves" to you that what you now believe is true.

 

[Jan001]

Your argument was Christ wasn't the Father and I gave you scriptures that confirm He is.

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Luke 23:46
Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.


John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

John 3:35
the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

John 5:18
This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him [Jesus], because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;

John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal.”

John 11:41
So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.
​

There is God kind. Only Three Persons are in this one God kind.
There is man kind, but there are billions of persons in this one man kind.

The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God, but three different divine Persons.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


John 15:26
But when the Counselor [Holy Spirit] comes, whom I [Son] shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth [Holy Spirit], who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me;

All Scriptures are from RSV
​

​

​

 

[Jan001]

It's not free when we are governed by it.

I think freewill is the freedom to choose our own actions without coercion from anyone.

If we are coerced to do something, we did not freely choose to do it.

We will be held responsible for our own freewill choices and we will also reap the consequences of our own freewill choices.

 

[Jan001]

Please give me some evidence to suggest God predestined, meaning he made the choice before time began, to create what is probably the biggest mess ever and let billions of people die because of it.

God did know all the works of every person before the foundation of the world. God is omniscient. God created individual humans so that each one could freely choose to know, love, and serve Him on earth and thereby be approved to live with Him forever after Jesus' Second Coming. God did not want slaves or puppets. He wanted each person to freely choose to love Him and obey Him.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall never enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. rsv​

Before the foundation of the world, God predestined to eternal life the people who He knew would still be found faithful to His commandments at the time of their physical death.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. rsv

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. rsv
​

God foreknew His elect by name: Lazarus, as in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. God will claim He does not know the unrighteous. He will claim that He does not know where any of the evil-doers are from and He will also claim that He never knew them. Ezekiel 33:12-20, Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:25-27

​

​

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Then why would Christ say:

"These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 14:24

Christ separates Himself from the Father all throughout Scripture. You tread dangerous ground Brother.

I am One with my wife...that doesn't make us the exact same person.

Again I gave you scripture that specifically says that Christ and the Father are the same. So your charge I tread dangerous ground is moot. And please read the scripture I gave you again and pray on it instead of attacking me for the scripture I posted.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Nah,... you just haven't done your homework, son...


"Verse 16.For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man. Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature; for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other; and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels; yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham; and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, John 6:33; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world," and "the whole world," and "the nations of the world," as distinct from the Jews; see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32. The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words, "'let them bring forth their witness,' that they may be justified, Isaiah 43:9 (say {b} the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth," these are 'the nations of the world.'"

And again {c}, "the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":" and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation. "There is a place (they say {d},) the name of which is "Hadrach," Zechariah 9:1. This is the King Messiah, who is, Krwdx, "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations," and tender to 'Israel.'" And so of the "sun of righteousness," in Malachi 4:2, they say {e}, "there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it." And that {f} "there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations." And on those words in Isaiah 21:12, "the morning cometh," and also the night, they observe {g}, "the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for 'the nations of the world.'" And again {h}, "in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations," and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, Isaiah 60:2." Once more {i}, "in the time to come, the holy, blessed God will bring the nations of the world, and will cast them into the midst of hell under the Israelites, as it is said, Isaiah 43:3." To which may be added that denunciation of theirs {k} "woe to the nations of the world, who perish, and they know not that they perish: in the time that the sanctuary was standing, the altar atoned for them; but now who shall atone for them?" Now, in opposition to such a notion, our Lord addresses this Jew; and it is as if he had said, you Rabbins say, that when the Messiah comes, only the Israelites, the peculiar favourites of God, shall share in the blessings that come by, and with him; and that the Gentiles shall reap no advantage by him, being hated of God, and rejected of him: but I tell you, God has so loved the Gentiles, as well as the Jews,

that he gave his only begotten Son; to, and for them, as well as for the Jews; to be a covenant of the people, the Gentiles, the Saviour of them, and a sacrifice for them; a gift which is a sufficient evidence of his love to them; it being a large and comprehensive one, an irreversible and unspeakable one; no other than his own Son by nature, of the same essence, perfections, and glory with him; begotten by him in a way inconceivable and expressible by mortals; and his only begotten one; the object of his love and delight, and in whom he is ever well pleased; and yet, such is his love to the Gentiles, as well as Jews, that he has given him, in human nature, up, into the hands of men, and of justice, and to death itself:

that whosoever believeth in him, whether Jew or Gentile,

should not perish, but have everlasting life; See Gill on "Joh 3:15."

{b} T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 2. 1. {c} Ib. fol. 4. 1. Vid. T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 91. 2. & Bereshit Rabba, fol. 11. 3. {d} Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 24. 1. Jarchi & Kimchi in Zech. ix. 1. {e} Zohar in Gen. fol. 112. 2. {f} Zohar in Exod. fol. 15. 1, 2. {g} T. Hieros. Taaniot, fol. 64. 1. {h} Shemot Rabba, sect. 14. fol. 99. 4. {i} Ib sect. 11. fol. 98. 3. {k} T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2."

http://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary.php?com=gill&b=43&c=3

It's your problem you don't believe scripture that Christ died for those that Believe on His name and yes that means everybody.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Sad that you left the only Church that teaches the whole Bible.

Actually it's wonderful I'm no longer bound for hell. Here are many things the catholic church teaches and scripture that prove the teachings are contrary to God's word.


Repetitious prayer

Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

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Confession to a priest

1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator (CHRIST) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (CHRIST).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He (CHRIST) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of the transgressions, till the seed came, unto the which the promise was made: and it was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediator CHRIST).

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator (CHRIST) of one: but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator (CHRIST) between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the new Testament, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not: and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.
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Forbiddung to eat meat and priest to marry

1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1 Tim 3 Entire chapter
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The Church is not related to salvation

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

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Eucharist NOT the body of Christ

Christ said the bread was His body does that make bread His flesh.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Jesus said he was a vine does that make Him a plant.

John 15:5
I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


So if Christ said bread is His body then by that logic Christ is also a vine too?


Christ also said he was a Rock so is he a rock too?


1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


So then is Christ a plant

John 15 : 1 I am that true vine, and my Father is that husbandman.

John 15:5 I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


Is Christ a Door?

John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily I say unto you, I am that door of the sheep.

John 10:9 I am that door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in, and go out, and find pasture.


Is Christ an animal

John 1 : 29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold that Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Is Christ water?

John 4 : 13 Jesus answered, and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him, shall never be more athirst: but the water that I shall give him, shall be in him a well of water, springing up into everlasting life.


Is Christ food?

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life.


Is Christ light? The fact is yes because light existed before the sun moon an stars were created?

Gen 1 : 3 Then God said, Let there be light: And there was light.
4 And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the Light, Day, and the darkness he called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ Again God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.

Rev 22 : 5 And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the Sun: for the Lord God giveth them light, and they shall reign for evermore.

John 8 : 12, 9 : 5 I am the light of the world.
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Baptism doesn't forgive "original sin"

Christ was baptised but he was sinless: Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Thief on cross was not baptised yet he went to heaven. Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent (FIRST), and (THEN) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:4 (symbolism of Christ's death, burial and resurrection)
We are buried then with him by baptism into his death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead to the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life.

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Statues of God and s Dead Saints are againt the second commandnent

Ex 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

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Saints are the living saved people of the church

1 Thessalonians 5:27
I charge you in the Lord, that this Epistle be read unto all the brethren the Saints.

Philippians 4:22
All the Saints salute you, and most of all they which are of Caesar’s household.

1 Timothy 5:10
And well reported of for good works: if she have nourished her children, if she have lodged the strangers, if she have washed the Saints’ feet, if she have ministered unto them which were in adversity, if she were continually given unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as we see in all the Churches of the Saints.

Ephesians 3:8
Even unto me the least of all Saints is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ,


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The catholic church is not the "true" church


Peter was not the first pope nor is there a pope mentioned or condoned in the bible

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone.

Who was Christ referring to when He said this....19 Jesus answered, and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone, and a rock to make men fall: and everyone that believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.

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Christ died once for all which proves Mass is of satanic origin.


Hebrews 9:26 (For then must he have often suffered since the foundation of the world) but now in the end of the world hath he been made manifest, once to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men that they shall once die, and after that cometh the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many, and unto them that look for him, shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Every person has sinned because we all inherited Adam's sin. Jesus died on the cross to atone for Adam's sin. No person could go to heaven after he died because of Adam's sin. That is why Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom instead of in heaven even though the rich man was already in hell. Jesus' death on the cross has made it possible once again for people to enter into heaven.

Romans 5:12
Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned—

18 Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. rsv
​

The Christians to whom John was writing in 1 John were still sinning their own personal sins after they had been saved. Please note that these previously saved Christians still had to ask for forgiveness for their present sins in order to be forgiven them.

I believe that man can and does sin until his dying breath

1 John 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. rsv​

Do You believe that Jesus died on the cross to forgive all our sins and so therefore it does not matter if we Christians continue to sin against Him? Do you believe that there are no eternal consequences for the disobedient Christian?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I read the Bible for myself. I've found nothing at all in it which contradicts my Catholic faith. My own interpretation of the Bible "proves" to me that my Catholic faith is the faith of Jesus and His apostles.

However, your own interpretation of the Bible "proves" to you that what you now believe is true.

Repetitious prayer

Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Confession to a priest

1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator (CHRIST) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (CHRIST).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He (CHRIST) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of the transgressions, till the seed came, unto the which the promise was made: and it was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediator CHRIST).

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator (CHRIST) of one: but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator (CHRIST) between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the new Testament, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not: and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Forbiddung to eat meat and priest to marry

1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1 Tim 3 Entire chapter
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Church is not related to salvation

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Eucharist NOT the body of Christ

Christ said the bread was His body does that make bread His flesh.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Jesus said he was a vine does that make Him a plant.

John 15:5
I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


So if Christ said bread is His body then by that logic Christ is also a vine too?


Christ also said he was a Rock so is he a rock too?


1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


So then is Christ a plant

John 15 : 1 I am that true vine, and my Father is that husbandman.

John 15:5 I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


Is Christ a Door?

John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily I say unto you, I am that door of the sheep.

John 10:9 I am that door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in, and go out, and find pasture.


Is Christ an animal

John 1 : 29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold that Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Is Christ water?

John 4 : 13 Jesus answered, and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him, shall never be more athirst: but the water that I shall give him, shall be in him a well of water, springing up into everlasting life.


Is Christ food?

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life.


Is Christ light? The fact is yes because light existed before the sun moon an stars were created?

Gen 1 : 3 Then God said, Let there be light: And there was light.
4 And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the Light, Day, and the darkness he called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ Again God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.

Rev 22 : 5 And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the Sun: for the Lord God giveth them light, and they shall reign for evermore.

John 8 : 12, 9 : 5 I am the light of the world.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Baptism doesn't forgive "original sin"

Christ was baptised but he was sinless: Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Thief on cross was not baptised yet he went to heaven. Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent (FIRST), and (THEN) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:4 (symbolism of Christ's death, burial and resurrection)
We are buried then with him by baptism into his death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead to the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Statues of God and s Dead Saints are againt the second commandnent

Ex 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Saints are the living saved people of the church

1 Thessalonians 5:27
I charge you in the Lord, that this Epistle be read unto all the brethren the Saints.

Philippians 4:22
All the Saints salute you, and most of all they which are of Caesar’s household.

1 Timothy 5:10
And well reported of for good works: if she have nourished her children, if she have lodged the strangers, if she have washed the Saints’ feet, if she have ministered unto them which were in adversity, if she were continually given unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as we see in all the Churches of the Saints.

Ephesians 3:8
Even unto me the least of all Saints is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ,


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The catholic church is not the "true" church


Peter was not the first pope nor is there a pope mentioned or condoned in the bible

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone.

Who was Christ referring to when He said this....19 Jesus answered, and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone, and a rock to make men fall: and everyone that believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ died once for all which proves Mass is of satanic origin.


Hebrews 9:26 (For then must he have often suffered since the foundation of the world) but now in the end of the world hath he been made manifest, once to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men that they shall once die, and after that cometh the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many, and unto them that look for him, shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[keltoi]

Romans 8:29

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. rsv

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. rsv​

Read the entire chapter instead of posting 2 verses out of context. God did not predestine billions of people to death. God foreknew those who would accept Christ so he predestined that they would be in the image of the Son, nothing more nothing less. It is reference to the new body Christians are resurrected with in the end times.​

 

[keltoi]

Repetitious prayer

Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.


1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Confession to a priest

1 Tim 2:1-7 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator (CHRIST) between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator (CHRIST).

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He (CHRIST) is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 2:5 [Full Chapter]
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of the transgressions, till the seed came, unto the which the promise was made: and it was ordained by Angels in the hand of a Mediator CHRIST).

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator (CHRIST) of one: but God is one.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator (CHRIST) between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the Mediator of the new Testament, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1 John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not: and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Forbiddung to eat meat and priest to marry

1 Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1 Tim 3 Entire chapter
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Church is not related to salvation

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Eucharist NOT the body of Christ

Christ said the bread was His body does that make bread His flesh.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


Jesus said he was a vine does that make Him a plant.

John 15:5
I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


So if Christ said bread is His body then by that logic Christ is also a vine too?


Christ also said he was a Rock so is he a rock too?


1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


So then is Christ a plant

John 15 : 1 I am that true vine, and my Father is that husbandman.

John 15:5 I am that vine: ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me can ye do nothing.


Is Christ a Door?

John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily I say unto you, I am that door of the sheep.

John 10:9 I am that door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in, and go out, and find pasture.


Is Christ an animal

John 1 : 29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold that Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Is Christ water?

John 4 : 13 Jesus answered, and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him, shall never be more athirst: but the water that I shall give him, shall be in him a well of water, springing up into everlasting life.


Is Christ food?

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life.


Is Christ light? The fact is yes because light existed before the sun moon an stars were created?

Gen 1 : 3 Then God said, Let there be light: And there was light.
4 And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the Light, Day, and the darkness he called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ Again God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.

Rev 22 : 5 And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the Sun: for the Lord God giveth them light, and they shall reign for evermore.

John 8 : 12, 9 : 5 I am the light of the world.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Baptism doesn't forgive "original sin"

Christ was baptised but he was sinless: Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Thief on cross was not baptised yet he went to heaven. Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent (FIRST), and (THEN) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:4 (symbolism of Christ's death, burial and resurrection)
We are buried then with him by baptism into his death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead to the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Statues of God and s Dead Saints are againt the second commandnent

Ex 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Saints are the living saved people of the church

1 Thessalonians 5:27
I charge you in the Lord, that this Epistle be read unto all the brethren the Saints.

Philippians 4:22
All the Saints salute you, and most of all they which are of Caesar’s household.

1 Timothy 5:10
And well reported of for good works: if she have nourished her children, if she have lodged the strangers, if she have washed the Saints’ feet, if she have ministered unto them which were in adversity, if she were continually given unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as we see in all the Churches of the Saints.

Ephesians 3:8
Even unto me the least of all Saints is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ,


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The catholic church is not the "true" church


Peter was not the first pope nor is there a pope mentioned or condoned in the bible

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone.

Who was Christ referring to when He said this....19 Jesus answered, and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone, and a rock to make men fall: and everyone that believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ died once for all which proves Mass is of satanic origin.


Hebrews 9:26 (For then must he have often suffered since the foundation of the world) but now in the end of the world hath he been made manifest, once to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men that they shall once die, and after that cometh the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many, and unto them that look for him, shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

That was obviously pre-prepared for discussions like this.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Luke 23:46
Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.


John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

John 3:35
the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

John 5:18
This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him [Jesus], because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;

John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal.”

John 11:41
So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.
​

There is God kind. Only Three Persons are in this one God kind.
There is man kind, but there are billions of persons in this one man kind.

The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God, but three different divine Persons.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


John 15:26
But when the Counselor [Holy Spirit] comes, whom I [Son] shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth [Holy Spirit], who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me;

All Scriptures are from RSV
​

​

​

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

 

[98cwitr]

Again I gave you scripture that specifically says that Christ and the Father are the same. So your charge I tread dangerous ground is moot. And please read the scripture I gave you again and pray on it instead of attacking me for the scripture I posted.

So what do you do at this point? Simply ignore the scripture I post?

Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yetnot my will, but yours be done.”

John 8:54
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Christ clearly does not equate Himself to the Father!