Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[BobRyan]

Why did Christ die on the cross if salvation depended in any way on your works?

Christ died on the cross to reconcile man to God, to pay our debt of sin - the second-death debt of the Rev 20 lake of fire which no man can pay - and survive. Reconciled to God we receive the new birth. That new birth produces good works showing that we daily are choosing to "take up our cross and follow Christ".

Thus in Matt 18 - Christ is telling the truth about the problem of 'forgiveness revoked' and so also in Romans 11.

 

[BobRyan]

Just a slight misconception there; Predestination is about God having already decided that something will happen, not necessarily God making something happen right now, hence the "pre-" suffix. But otherwise, yes, exactly on point.

God "permits" what he foreknows and does not stop.
God "ordains" what He plans - what He predestines.

 

[BobRyan]

Predestination is a term that gives perspective to those who dwell within the non-reality of time.

For example: If you asked, What happens to Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz? The answer would be: She wakes up (if I recall correctly). But if your question came half way through the book, then the answer would be: I don't know,

Foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination.

Predestination as used by Calvinists - means something that is ordained by God.

 

[BobRyan]

Works has nothing to do with salvation...But faith in Christ alone does.

Romans 10:13 Geneva Bible (GNV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved.


Acts 16:31 Geneva Bible (GNV)
31 And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thine household.

Romans 10:9 Geneva Bible (GNV)
9 For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Quoted from God's precious word

Amen

 

[keltoi]

Let's not spout out facts without backing them up with evidence please.

I point you to the Bible the evidence is there for all who have eyes to see.

 

[Patmos]

Canons of Dort

Article 6: God's Eternal Decision

The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decision. For all his works are known to God from eternity (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11). In accordance with this decision he graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of his chosen ones and inclines them to believe, but by his just judgment he leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen. And in this especially is disclosed to us his act--unfathomable, and as merciful as it is just--of distinguishing between people equally lost. This is the well-known decision of election and reprobation revealed in God's Word. This decision the wicked, impure, and unstable distort to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words.

I have an issue with Calvinists who do not hold to Double predestination when there foundation teaching does "This is the well-known decision of election and reprobation".

Also with the idea that we are born with hardened hearts. Did we pre exist when we hardened them ?

 

[Patmos]

Canons of Dort

Article 7: Election

Election [or choosing] is God's unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin.

So, before the foundation of the world YOU SINNED.

BTW, forget about evangelism "he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people"

 

[Patmos]

Oh, BTW, Forget about prayer as well:

Canons of Dort
Article 11: Election Unchangeable

Just as God himself is most wise, unchangeable, all-knowing, and almighty, so the election made by him can neither be suspended nor altered, revoked, or annulled;

Who ever wrote the Bible, how did they get it so wrong ?


Luke 19:9And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. 10"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Seems Luke forgot to check with the Canons of Dort!

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Christ died on the cross to reconcile man to God, to pay our debt of sin - the send-death debt of the Rev 20 lake of fire which no man can pay - and survive. Reconciled to God we receive the new birth. That new birth produces good works showing that we daily are choosing to "take up our cross and follow Christ".

Thus in Matt 18 - Christ is telling the truth about the problem of 'forgiveness revoked' and so also in Romans 11.

I agree 100% that "good works" comes after salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

g
So, before the foundation of the world YOU SINNED.

Not according to the Bible. In the bible all was well until Adam sinned (Romans 5).

In the Bible - Christ is given as the Lamb of God for the sins of the world -- before the foundations of the world - but no man was accounted guilty of anything at that time.

 

[Jan001]

Works has nothing to do with salvation...But faith in Christ alone does.

Acts 16:311599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
31 And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thine household.

Romans 10:91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
9 For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Quoted from God's precious word

To believe in Jesus means that you do what He tells you to do; His commandments.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv​

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

To believe in Jesus means that you do what He tells you to do; His commandments.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv​

Really so you think that Christ died on the cross for our sins PLUS we have to obey his commandments which are works to be saved. The bible doesn't support that notion.

Romans 10:
9 For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth man confesseth to salvation.
11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Grecian: for he that is Lord over all, is rich unto all that call on him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved.

 

[ScottA]

Foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination.

Predestination as used by Calvinists - means something that is ordained by God.

My point was that the terms used by whomever, mean something to the person in the midst of their would-be journey, but mean little more than the form of media used by the Author of their story. We would call our time, real time...only because it is all we know. But to God, it was/is simply a means of telling the otherwise timeless story.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Christ died on the cross to reconcile man to God, to pay our debt of sin - the send-death debt of the Rev 20 lake of fire which no man can pay - and survive. Reconciled to God we receive the new birth. That new birth produces good works showing that we daily are choosing to "take up our cross and follow Christ".

Thus in Matt 18 - Christ is telling the truth about the problem of 'forgiveness revoked' and so also in Romans 11.

Actually it was a rhetorical question to the one I asked that question and yes I agree with your answer.

 

[BobRyan]

Canons of Dort

Article 7: Election

Election [or choosing] is God's unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin.

So, before the foundation of the world YOU SINNED.

BTW, forget about evangelism "he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people"

It does not say you did anything at all before the foundation of the world- unless you are God.

 

[BobRyan]

My point was that the terms used by whomever, mean something to the person in the midst of their would-be journey, but mean little more than the form of media used by the Author of their story. We would call our time, real time...only because it is all we know. But to God, it was/is simply a means of telling the otherwise timeless story.

"God and time" is a big topic - maybe too big for humanity.

But one thing is for sure - in the "Absolute" case - where there is no time - there are no events... there is no before... there is no after. there can be no action, no sin, no obedience, no choice. So "however He does it" events still exist.

 

[ScottA]

"God and time" is a big topic - maybe too big for humanity.

But one thing is for sure - in the "Absolute" case - where there is no time - there are no events... there is no before... there is no after. there can be no action, no sin, no obedience, no choice. So "however He does it" events still exist.

Good answer.

The best example of that "Absolute", and in fact is the proof...is "I am."

But we should consider, and therefore, it is reasonable, that we are not the measure of such things...and nothing is impossible with God.

 

[98cwitr]

I point you to the Bible the evidence is there for all who have eyes to see.

Very happy to see and discuss them with you Please post the specific verses.

 

[keltoi]

Very happy to see and discuss them with you Please post the specific verses.

Are you saying I'm wrong? or are you objecting to me pointing out the truth without Biblical backing?

 

[98cwitr]

Are you saying I'm wrong? or are you objecting to me pointing out the truth without Biblical backing?

I am saying that we shouldn't state theological facts without backing them up with quoted Scripture. Well I don't believe in free will in a literal sense, so I'd like to see what Scripture you have that you believe proves it. I believe we have a will that is directly governed and dictated by our nature, and that nature is governed by our hearts, and our hearts are sovereignly governed by God's will for us. I'd like to see if you have any Scripture that would prove my beliefs errant.