Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Albion]

Yes those of us who accepted that free gift of salvation that is offered by Christ. You do know not everybody accepts gifts for one reason or another don't you? So your verse doesn't support Calvinism once again.

What you say here doesn't speak well for the idea that you read these verses. It's very clear that Jesus is describing Election and Eternal Security both in that passage.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

So you believe faith is from God then and that the message is delivered by man? So when a preacher preaches the word, then God is doing the work to move a person's heart to have faith in the message?

No I don't believe that people have faith in the message but rather are drawn to the truth through the message by the Holy Spirit. The sower of the seeds proves my point.

 

[Albion]

No I don't believe that people have faith in the message but rather are drawn to the truth through the message by the Holy Spirit. The sower of the seeds proves my point.

I suspect that every time a person is described in Scripture as having come to Christ you interpret that as them having chosen, through free choice, to do that.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

What you say here doesn't speak well for the idea that you read these verses. It's very clear that Jesus is describing Election and Eternal Security both in that passage.

The fact is we are all elected to be saved because Christ said so but few people heed His gospel.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I suspect that every time a person is described in Scripture as having come to Christ you interpret that as them having chosen, through free choice, to do that.

So in essence you believe you were forced to be saved and had no choice? And your claim leads one to believe that Christ knowingly condemns the majority of the world to hell because that is His will....Yes or No?

 

[98cwitr]

No I don't believe that people have faith in the message but rather are drawn to the truth through the message by the Holy Spirit. The sower of the seeds proves my point.

I see you're Anabaptist, and I just want to preface this by says I have an immense respect for your denomination's theology. I am actually trying to find an Anabaptist church in my area to visit.

It feels like we are dancing around the topic, so let me be a bit more clear: Does God give faith or do men self-manifest it? I believe God gives faith: Eph 2:8; 4:13

 

[98cwitr]

The fact is we are all elected to be saved because Christ said so but few people heed His gospel.

That frame of interpretation goes against everything the doctrine of election says. The fact that the Bible shows a separation of sheep and goats proves that we are not "all elected." Christ never said we are all elected.


Matthew 24:22
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Mark 13:20
“If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Mark 13:22
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:27
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Romans 11:7
What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,

2 Peter 1:3
[ Confirming One’s Calling and Election ] His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I see you're Anabaptist, and I just want to preface this by says I have an immense respect for your denomination's theology. I am actually trying to find an Anabaptist church in my area to visit.

It feels like we are dancing around the topic, so let me be a bit more clear: Does God give faith or do men self-manifest it? I believe God gives faith: Eph 2:8; 4:13

I'm was born and raised a catholic until I read the bible and noticed all the heresy's I bought into. It was a tough road to admit I was wrong and the bible disagreed with just about everything I believed. The only way I found this out is when I was challenged to read the bible for myself to know that truth. Now you know why I take the stand I take. I belong to a baptist in which I am one of the original founders and we're a little over 11 years old. No church is perfect but as long as all the bible is taught in it's entirety it's a good place to be. Beware just because a church says it's baptist doesn't make it so because we have many around my neck of the woods that are more into feel goodism rather than teach the parts of God's word that convict our hearts.

 

[98cwitr]

I'm was born and raised a catholic until I read the bible and noticed all the heresy's I bought into. It was a tough road to admit I was wrong and the bible disagreed with just about everything I believed. The only way I found this out is when I was challenged to read the bible for myself to know that truth. Now you know why I take the stand I take. I belong to a baptist in which I am one of the original founders and we're a little over 11 years old. No church is perfect but as long as all the bible is taught in it's entirety it's a good place to be. Beware just because a church says it's baptist doesn't make it so because we have many around my neck of the woods that are more into feel goodism rather than teach the parts of God's word that convict our hearts.

I was maybe worse off! The first time I read the bible I was an atheist. Amen to your sentiments brother.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

That frame of interpretation goes against everything the doctrine of election says. The fact that the Bible shows a separation of sheep and goats proves that we are not "all elected." Christ never said we are all elected.


Matthew 24:22
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Mark 13:20
“If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Mark 13:22
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:27
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Romans 9:11
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Romans 11:7
What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,

2 Peter 1:3
[ Confirming One’s Calling and Election ] His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

You're still avoiding to answer my question it what you say is true then God also "elected" the majority of mankind to end up in Hell.

 

[98cwitr]

Answered that here: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...cive-determinism.7943829/page-8#post-69574894

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I was maybe worse off! The first time I read the bible I was an atheist. Amen to your sentiments brother.

Oh wait.....you win that argument but to be honest I wasn't to much different than you because all unbelievers are the same in God's eyes..........condemned. I thank God we found the truth before it was to late

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Answered that here: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...cive-determinism.7943829/page-8#post-69574894

But that still doesn't explain that if what you said was true then God elected the Majority of mankind to hell too.

 

[98cwitr]

But that still doesn't explain that if what you said was true then God elected the Majority of mankind to hell too.

I let the Scripture answer that for me, but yes. If you look at the majority of people in the world you can clearly see that their fruit is rotted. Could God remove their hearts of stone and give them a heart of flesh to obey? Sure...havent seen it yet though. Few means few.

 

[Albion]

The fact is we are all elected to be saved because Christ said so but few people heed His gospel.

All that you're doing there is using the word elected to mean not elected.

 

[98cwitr]

All that you're doing there is using the word elected to mean not elected.

"maybe" elected..."potentially" elected

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I let the Scripture answer that for me, but yes. If you look at the majority of people in the world you can clearly see that their fruit is rotted. Could God remove their hearts of stone and give them a heart of flesh to obey? Sure...havent seen it yet though. Few means few.

But scripture states Christ died for all of mankind so again your thinking does not pan out.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

All that you're doing there is using the word elected to mean not elected.

Actually you logic dictates either we're "elected" to heaven or "elected" to hell. Which is it both or nothing?

 

[mikpat]

Born-again- Christian,

Was the Catholic Church's teaching too much for you…./ Grab a bible,, and seek out what comforts you……

Works every time…..Take the Bible and fit it into your philosophy———-Amen, now I feel good…..
Alleluia. ha, ha, ha, An old story——ho hummm.

 

[bling]

You know, that's a valid concern. But on the other hand, what does the non-predestination POV suppose? Well, it's that the majority of the world's people are going to hell anyway.

People that "go to hell" would not be happy in heaven, since heaven is like one huge "Love Feast" of only Godly type Love. People that "go to hell" have repeatedly refused to accept Godly type Love (preferring to be loved for the way they want people to perceive them to be) and reached the point of never humbly accepting Godly type Love as pure charity.