Origin of God's Morality.

[Davian]

Why put in good work and effort on something that's not going to bear any fruit?

You guys certainly haven't done anything to promote your point of view...

I am not here to champion science or promote my views, and that would certainly be off-topic for this forum.

How do you know in advance that it will fail? Is not the point of this forum for individuals such as yourself to take a shot at it?

 

[Root of Jesse]

The concepts are not incompatible.

Maybe, but two different things.

I made no allusions to that era. However, Wikipedia does have a section on the history of beliefs in a flat Earth from the Ancient Near East, Ancient Mediterranean, Ancient India, Norse and Germanic peoples, and Ancient China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Historical_development

But none in Judaism or Christianity.

While it is tempting to cite some celebrities that were recently in the news railing against the flat-Earth deniers, I could look to the ancient writers that believed in an immovable - and flat - Earth.

The Old World

• Davian
• Oct 17, 2014
• 1

But none from Christianity or Judaism.

I still would like to know, why does it matter from where it comes?

Because your comment was to disparage ancient Christians as people believing in a flat Earth.

Not at all. The concept of a flat Earth is justified by observational data and everyday experience.

Actually not. When you look at how the stars move, you realize you're not on a flat disk.

I am just pointing out that beliefs can be rational and justified, but that does not necessarily make them true.

Riiiight.

 

[Root of Jesse]

With that established, do you then accept as real the existence of Thor, as described in Norse mythology, a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind?

No. We know where thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, and strength come from. It ain't Thor.

 

[Root of Jesse]

All I know is that you failed to deliver. What am I to conclude from that?

You may conclude whatever you wish. That doesn't mean you're right.

 

[Davian]

Maybe, but two different things.

But not mutually exclusive.

But none in Judaism or Christianity.
But none from Christianity or Judaism.

Are the text references embedded in the diagram unfamiliar to you?

The Old World

• Davian
• Oct 17, 2014
• 1

Because your comment was to disparage ancient Christians as people believing in a flat Earth.

Not at all. Their beliefs were rational and justified for the time in which they lived. It just did not make them true.

Actually not. When you look at how the stars move, you realize you're not on a flat disk.

Explain.

Riiiight.

Do you disagree? Do you not think there are religionists out there with beliefs different than yours that also consider their beliefs to be rational and justified? You can't all be right.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

This sounds a lot like my "moral arguement" rant.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

 

[Davian]

No. We know where thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, and strength come from. It ain't Thor.

Interesting. Can this argument be used against other god claims? Yours, for example?

 

[Davian]

You may conclude whatever you wish. That doesn't mean you're right.

In saying that you can't deliver, for me it is not about being right or wrong, but about being accurate.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Interesting. Can this argument be used against other god claims? Yours, for example?

Actually, no, it can't Our God is the first cause of everything. Lightning, thunder, etc. Trace it all back, you'll find a reason for everything. When you get to a point of I don't know, you've figured it out-God.

 

[Root of Jesse]

But not mutually exclusive.

Yeah, they sorta are.

Are the text references embedded in the diagram unfamiliar to you?

The Old World

• Davian
• Oct 17, 2014
• 1

Nope. But the Bible is not a book of science. That's what gets you tripped up all the time.

Not at all. Their beliefs were rational and justified for the time in which they lived. It just did not make them true.

How do you know what they believed about the heavens?

Explain.

I think you pasted a picture of startrails in a circular motion...man on earth saw this and knew that, at least, things were going around and around. Phoenician sailors knew the earth wasn't flat.

Do you disagree? Do you not think there are religionists out there with beliefs different than yours that also consider their beliefs to be rational and justified? You can't all be right.

They may, but I don't believe they can prove it. Christianity and God are provable.

 

[Davian]

Actually, no, it can't Our God is the first cause of everything. Lightning, thunder, etc. Trace it all back, you'll find a reason for everything. When you get to a point of I don't know, you've figured it out-God.

So yours is a god-of-the-gaps.

How does that differ from a naturalistic explanation of the world, other than replacing "I don't know" with "God did it"?

 

[zippy2006]

Why do we aspire to further the wellbeing of others?

Perhaps natural man would be interested in the well-being of others because he is a social being who flourishes best in the polis where exchange of goods and specialization contribute to the common good and well-being of all members. Since his well-being depends directly on the well-being of the polis, and the well-being of the polis depends directly on the well-being of each of its members, he must be interested in the well-being of each of the members.

To put it concisely, wellbeing. We aspire to furthering the wellbeing of ourselves and others. That's what it means to do good.

St. Thomas would say "happiness" more than "well-being," although well-being contributes a great deal towards happiness.

"Augustine says (De Trin. xiii, 3) that all men agree in desiring the last end, which is happiness." -Aquinas​

 

[Davian]

Yeah, they sorta are.

How so?

Nope. But the Bible is not a book of science.

So you do recognize them.

That's what gets you tripped up all the time.

I never claimed it to be a book of science.

How do you know what they believed about the heavens?

It can be inferred from how they described the world around them in their writings.

The Old World

• Davian
• Oct 17, 2014
• 1

I think you pasted a picture of startrails in a circular motion...man on earth saw this and knew that, at least, things were going around and around.

And how would it look if things were not going around and around, and it was actually the Earth that was rotating?

How does this demonstrate the non-flatness of the Earth?

Phoenician sailors knew the earth wasn't flat.

So?

They may, but I don't believe they can prove it. Christianity and God are provable.

Yet you fail to deliver on that claim.

 

[bhsmte]

Actually, the Church knows who wrote them. You don't accept the Church's authority. There's the problem.

Really?

Who does the "church" say wrote them and how do they support their claim?

 

[bhsmte]

Maybe, maybe not.

And how would you determine whether to believe my story?

 

[bhsmte]

I have lots of justification, all of which is very rational. In fact, I believe it's IRrational not to believe it.

Would this then mean, that 2/3 of the world's population is irrational?

 

[bhsmte]

Prove that you're sincerely interested. I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

If you have proof, it should be able to stand on it's own merits.

If you need someone who already agrees with you, so you can preach to the choir, it doesn't say much for your argument.

 

[bhsmte]

They seem to be content at merely gesturing toward the arguments rather than actually discussing them.

Too risky to get too deep, too much exposure.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This is directly related to the topic. Either answer the question, or admit you're not really interested.

Then relate it to the topic. Remember, we are discussing this supposedly rock-solid case you claim to have. At what point do you intend on presenting this case?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Actually, no, it can't Our God is the first cause of everything. Lightning, thunder, etc. Trace it all back, you'll find a reason for everything. When you get to a point of I don't know, you've figured it out-God.

Argument from ignorance.