Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[vinsight4u]

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[LittleLambofJesus]

613 if you want to follow the sabbath there are 613 commandants.

I found this post informative from another thread, if you are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/faq-question-do-messianics-keep-the-613-mitzvot.70369/
FAQ Question: Do Messianics keep the 613 Mitzvot?

quote: Shalom Justinhulsey

All the 613 Mitzvot do not apply to one specific person. Some of the laws within the 613 Mitzvot are for the priesthood and the Temple. Some of the laws are for male and not female and vise versa. Some of the laws pertain to proselytes. Some of the laws pertain to all of the House of Yisrael.

So no one individual can keep all the 613 laws. However, as a people of Yahuah they are all to be fulfilled, but only if every thing is in its place. There is not a Temple today, therefore some laws that pertain to it and some laws that pertain to the priesthood because of the temple cannot be fulfilled.

Some of the Mitzvot that pertain to the priesthood such as atonement for sins, is being fulfilled by the High Priest Yahshuah HaMashiach. So, therefore, we do not have to fulfill these laws within the 613 Mitzvot.

Also, in your answers for the Messianic Judaism FAQ, could you make it clear that the 613 Mitzvot was not just given to the Jews only, but it was given to the House of Yisrael, which consists of 12 tribes. Not all the 12 tribes are Jews, only one tribe is Jewish. Therefore, the 613 Mitzvot applies to more people than just the Jews.

And maybe make it scripturally clear why Messianics observe the Mitzvot in the Faith of Yahshuah. (If you have not allready) Here is why I understand why we do.

It is clear that Yahuah told His people that a time would come and He would scatter them among the nations, because they did not observe His Mitzvot.

Deut 30:1 Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where Yahuah your Elohim drives you,

It its clear that when they return they would again obey His voice, according to all that He command them that day, which was the Mitzvot. (The Mitzvot can be found in the Old Covenant.)

Deut 30:2-3 and you return to Yahuah your Elohim and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, that Yahuah your Elohim will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where Yahuah your Elohim has scattered you.

Deut 30:3-8 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there Yahuah your Elohim will gather you, and from there He will bring you. 5 Then Yahuah your Elohim will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And Yahuah your Elohim will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love Yahuah your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 Also Yahuah your Elohim will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which I command you today.

Just as Yahuah made it clear again in verse eight, "you will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which I command you today.".... It should be made clear again why Messianics keep the Mitzvot in the faith of Yahshuah .

The return of the lost sheep to the Mitzvot and Elohim began with Yahshuah,

Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisrael."

Another point, is that the teachings of Rom 10:1-10 is the fulfillment of Deut 30:1-14. When they return and through the prophesy of Rom 10:6-10 they will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which He command that day. In other words the same Mitzvot that existed then but were rejected, will still be waiting for them when they return. This is where the prophesy of Deut 30:1-14 is fulfilled.

Rom 10:6-10 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (That is, to bring Mashiach down from above) or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (That is, to bring Mashiach up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth Yahshuah and believe in your heart that Elohim has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now to the rest of the prophecy and please note that the prophecy of Rom 10:6-10 is the same as the prophecy of Deut 30:9-14 and that the entire 30th chapter Deuteronomy pertains to the House of Yisrael, for which the prophecy of Rom 10:6-10 applies to!

Deut 30:9-14 If you obey the voice of Yahuah your Elohim, to keep His commandments and His statutes, which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to Yahuah your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. "For this commandment which I command you today, it is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

As we see, the teaching of Rom 10:6-10 is the prophetic fulfillment of Deut 30:1-14 and when rightly divided it we can clearly see the teaching of the scripture shows and proves that Yisrael is to observe Mitzvot when they return to Yahuah. This is a second chance for the lost sheep of the House of Yisrael to repent and have forgiveness for their sins so they can return to Yahuah and His Mitzvot.

This is why the Messianics observe the Mitzvot in the faith of Yahshuah. After all this is the context of Paul's teaching in the first few verses of Romans chapter 10.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to Elohim for Yisrael is that they may be saved.

What does it mean to be Torah observant?

It means to return to Yahuah and His Torah in the faith of Yahshuah, after all the return of the lost sheep to Yahuah and His Mitzvot is in the Mitzvot !

Shalom
Daron

Ps: I did not realize you are a Mod in this forum, so I edited my post a bit, you know many of these things. I should be a bit more alert ........................................................

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[LittleLambofJesus]

The OT shows that the ten commandments were to
Israel/the Hebrews. Look at what the sabbath rules
mean to them and those that are within their gates.

Which gates are those? Just curious.


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[bugkiller]

avoiding the Bible - by calling it "spam" is not a tactic used even in the dark ages against Protestants. It is newer than that.

In the case above the effort to get the thread back on topic is being attacked in favor of derailing the thread.

No sir I'm not avoiding anything. Certainly not calling the Bible spam. But your repeated post that has been responded to numerous times is spam.

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

I see over and over when we show scriptures equating the Law as cursing, death, condemning, or any other negative thing then somehow that isn't the "Law" that those who promote the Sabbath/10 commandments are talking about but when the word law or command or commandment seems positive it MUST be the 10/Sabbath Laws and cannot be any other laws/commandments. Essentially we have this game of double standards being played that have a blind bias to the Law being the most wonderful thing and in that it makes Jesus.... dim in comparison.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I you don't accept Paul as most of mainstream Christianity [of course the apostate non-Christians Jews and Muslims also do not accept him]

Anyway, that would make for an interesting thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/christianity-without-paul.7934232/
Christianity without Paul







.

I think I already posted in that thread and called it some sort of warped version of Judaism and not Christianity at all because without Paul's Gospel of Grace the Gospel is like a cake missing what makes it delicious in the first place and instead makes it... tasteless.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

/

 

[bugkiller]

I found this post informative from another thread, if you are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/faq-question-do-messianics-keep-the-613-mitzvot.70369/
FAQ Question: Do Messianics keep the 613 Mitzvot?

quote: Shalom Justinhulsey

All the 613 Mitzvot do not apply to one specific person. Some of the laws within the 613 Mitzvot are for the priesthood and the Temple. Some of the laws are for male and not female and vise versa. Some of the laws pertain to proselytes. Some of the laws pertain to all of the House of Yisrael.

So no one individual can keep all the 613 laws. However, as a people of Yahuah they are all to be fulfilled, but only if every thing is in its place. There is not a Temple today, therefore some laws that pertain to it and some laws that pertain to the priesthood because of the temple cannot be fulfilled.

Some of the Mitzvot that pertain to the priesthood such as atonement for sins, is being fulfilled by the High Priest Yahshuah HaMashiach. So, therefore, we do not have to fulfill these laws within the 613 Mitzvot.

Also, in your answers for the Messianic Judaism FAQ, could you make it clear that the 613 Mitzvot was not just given to the Jews only, but it was given to the House of Yisrael, which consists of 12 tribes. Not all the 12 tribes are Jews, only one tribe is Jewish. Therefore, the 613 Mitzvot applies to more people than just the Jews.

And maybe make it scripturally clear why Messianics observe the Mitzvot in the Faith of Yahshuah. (If you have not allready) Here is why I understand why we do.

It is clear that Yahuah told His people that a time would come and He would scatter them among the nations, because they did not observe His Mitzvot.

Deut 30:1 Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where Yahuah your Elohim drives you,

It its clear that when they return they would again obey His voice, according to all that He command them that day, which was the Mitzvot. (The Mitzvot can be found in the Old Covenant.)

Deut 30:2-3 and you return to Yahuah your Elohim and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, that Yahuah your Elohim will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where Yahuah your Elohim has scattered you.

Deut 30:3-8 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there Yahuah your Elohim will gather you, and from there He will bring you. 5 Then Yahuah your Elohim will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And Yahuah your Elohim will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love Yahuah your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 Also Yahuah your Elohim will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which I command you today.

Just as Yahuah made it clear again in verse eight, "you will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which I command you today.".... It should be made clear again why Messianics keep the Mitzvot in the faith of Yahshuah .

The return of the lost sheep to the Mitzvot and Elohim began with Yahshuah,

Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisrael."

Another point, is that the teachings of Rom 10:1-10 is the fulfillment of Deut 30:1-14. When they return and through the prophesy of Rom 10:6-10 they will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which He command that day. In other words the same Mitzvot that existed then but were rejected, will still be waiting for them when they return. This is where the prophesy of Deut 30:1-14 is fulfilled.

Rom 10:6-10 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (That is, to bring Mashiach down from above) or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (That is, to bring Mashiach up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth Yahshuah and believe in your heart that Elohim has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now to the rest of the prophecy and please note that the prophecy of Rom 10:6-10 is the same as the prophecy of Deut 30:9-14 and that the entire 30th chapter Deuteronomy pertains to the House of Yisrael, for which the prophecy of Rom 10:6-10 applies to!

Deut 30:9-14 If you obey the voice of Yahuah your Elohim, to keep His commandments and His statutes, which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to Yahuah your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. "For this commandment which I command you today, it is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

As we see, the teaching of Rom 10:6-10 is the prophetic fulfillment of Deut 30:1-14 and when rightly divided it we can clearly see the teaching of the scripture shows and proves that Yisrael is to observe Mitzvot when they return to Yahuah. This is a second chance for the lost sheep of the House of Yisrael to repent and have forgiveness for their sins so they can return to Yahuah and His Mitzvot.

This is why the Messianics observe the Mitzvot in the faith of Yahshuah. After all this is the context of Paul's teaching in the first few verses of Romans chapter 10.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to Elohim for Yisrael is that they may be saved.

What does it mean to be Torah observant?

It means to return to Yahuah and His Torah in the faith of Yahshuah, after all the return of the lost sheep to Yahuah and His Mitzvot is in the Mitzvot !

Shalom
Daron

Ps: I did not realize you are a Mod in this forum, so I edited my post a bit, you know many of these things. I should be a bit more alert ........................................................

.

That's part of the reason we have-

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. LK 24

bugkiller

PS nice to see you here lloj

 

[Sophrosyne]

There is a difference between being a spiritual
Jew and a real one from the land of Israel.

Gentiles come in - while Israel had been blinded

Romans 11:25

I'm not sure there is any such thing as a "spiritual" Jew as being a Jew itself was a carnal thing which involves the flesh.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[bugkiller]

There is a difference between being a spiritual
Jew and a real one from the land of Israel.

Gentiles come in - while Israel had been blinded

Romans 11:25

There's no such thing as a spiritual Jew.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I'm talking along the lines of believers in Christ
are circumcised too - but it is in the heart.
/spiritually

Romans 2:29

What about circumcised ears?

bugkiller

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Sophrosyne]

I'm talking along the lines of believers in Christ
are circumcised too - but it is in the heart.
/spiritually

Romans 2:29

The whole thing about circumcision isn't directed at Gentile believers but rather Jewish believers whose minds
cannot think past a connection with God without circumcision but Paul tells the Jews that we have instead of a carnal (fleshly) connection ours is spiritual and by equating spiritual circumcision or "of the heart" or whatever Paul has convinced those whose minds cannot fathom things without it to them.

 

[BobRyan]

The OT shows that the ten commandments were to
Israel/the Hebrews.

Jer 31:31-33 says the NEW Covenant is with the "House of Israel and the House of Judah" -- the people of God.
Heb 8:6-10 says the NEW Covenant is STILL with the "house of Israel and the house of Judah" -- the people of God.

Romans 2 say "HE is not a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY but he is a Jew who is one INWARDLY" -- the people of God.

Rom 2
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Is 66:23 the Sabbath is for "ALL MANKIND" according to the text.

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of Creation WEEK - Bible Sabbath.

Those who "imagine" that not-taking God's name in vain -- (A commandment never quoted in the NT) is not for Christians - have imagined a vain thing.

For all eternity - after the cross -

Is 66:23 " FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made

Ex 20:8,11 Remember the Sabbath day to KEEP it holy..
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sbbath day and made it holy.

Is 56

2 “How blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who takes hold of it;
Who keeps from profaning the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from His people.”
Nor let the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.”
..
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND - not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of the MAKING of both in Gen 1-2:3

God rested on the 7th day. I don't see where
He gave rules to man at that time

"Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.” Gen 26:5
In Gen 6 and 7 clean and unclean animals distinguished but the "details" of how to tell them apart come in Lev 11 -

"Every word ever spoken before the flood is not written down in the first 6 chapters of Genesis" -- those chapters are wayy too short.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

What do you think Romans 2:29 means?

Paul is talking to Jews and not Gentiles in the verse. He's talking about being a complete Jew opposed to being born a Jew in the flesh.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

God punished Israel for not keeping the sabbath-not other
nations.

No text in the OT says that non-Jewish nations were punished for "taking God's name in vain" or for "not honoring parents" or for "bowing down to false gods" or for "making an image of something in heaven", or for not loving God with all their heart, or for not "loving their neighbor as themselves".

Nor is Cain told "murder is sin" -- YET God says to Cain in Genesis 4 "SIN is crouching at your door" as Cain is angry with Abel and contemplates evil - murder.

"Not every word spoken in the first 1600 years of human history is recorded in the 7 short chapters of Genesis 1-7" -- they never claim to serve that purpose. As we probably all agree.

 

[BobRyan]

What do you think Romans 2:29 means?

It means that gentiles and Jews are spiritual Jews if they serve God instead of choosing to rebel against God.

Romans is written to the church in Rome - that had both Jews and gentiles.

Romans 2:29 says that gentiles are accounted as Jews - if they obey rather than rebel - this then is a rebuke to Jews - who are counted as Gentiles in that case.

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly,

Hence this entire post
=======================================


Jer 31:31-33 says the NEW Covenant is with the "House of Israel and the House of Judah" -- the people of God.
Heb 8:6-10 says the NEW Covenant is STILL with the "house of Israel and the house of Judah" -- the people of God.

Romans 2 say "HE is not a Jew who is one OUTWARDLY but he is a Jew who is one INWARDLY" -- the people of God.

Rom 2
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Is 66:23 the Sabbath is for "ALL MANKIND" according to the text.

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of Creation WEEK - Bible Sabbath.

Those who "imagine" that not-taking God's name in vain -- (A commandment never quoted in the NT) is not for Christians - have imagined a vain thing.

For all eternity - after the cross -

Is 66:23 " FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship"

 

[vinsight4u]

/