Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[Sophrosyne]

Did I imply eternal burning hell? Why do you try to put words in my mouth that are not there?

I find it ironic that their view of hell works against them, making it more comfortable for people who want nothing to do with them to reject God.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Actually it is against the rules to outright say that one must keep the Law in order to be saved that is why people avoid directly saying that it isn't because they don't believe that but because they don't want to lose their chance to sucker folks into following them in their quest to "save themselves" via keeping commandments.

So how do you read these passages then if you don't believe that obedience is required for salvation? Do you not see the references here to the Decalogue? (highlighted for your convenience)

1 Cor 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All the abominations listed can be understood in the Decalogue as Jesus taught us about the spirit of the Law.

 

[Sophrosyne]

So how do you read these passages then if you don't believe that obedience is required for salvation? Do you not see the references here to the Decalogue? (highlighted for your convenience)

1 Cor 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All the abominations listed can be understood in the Decalogue as Jesus taught us about the spirit of the Law.

I've read all those passages and you don't call fellow believers by these titles we aren't to be known by our sins but by our faith and fruits.
To put it short Christians are not to be known by "not sinning" but rather by our love for our neighbor. Essentially your "method" of being a Christian is to not hate while I prefer to love instead as Christ commands us.

 

[bugkiller]

So how do you read these passages then if you don't believe that obedience is required for salvation? Do you not see the references here to the Decalogue? (highlighted for your convenience)

1 Cor 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All the abominations listed can be understood in the Decalogue as Jesus taught us about the spirit of the Law.

But who are the righteous and how did they get that righteousness? (Clue - Rom 4)


bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

So how do you read these passages then if you don't believe that obedience is required for salvation? Do you not see the references here to the Decalogue? (highlighted for your convenience)

1 Cor 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All the abominations listed can be understood in the Decalogue as Jesus taught us about the spirit of the Law.

Look for the "do not be deceived" statements of Paul in places like 1 Cor 6... of John in 1 John 3, and of Christ in Matt 7 ... what do they all have in common?

They all agree with Romans 2:13-16 "it is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind"

 

[Bob S]

So how do you read these passages then if you don't believe that obedience is required for salvation? Do you not see the references here to the Decalogue? (highlighted for your convenience)

1 Cor 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All the abominations listed can be understood in the Decalogue as Jesus taught us about the spirit of the Law.

No problem, all those things fall under love others as I have loved you. see, that isn't so hard to understand is it?

 

[bugkiller]

So how do you read these passages then if you don't believe that obedience is required for salvation? Do you not see the references here to the Decalogue? (highlighted for your convenience)

1 Cor 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

All the abominations listed can be understood in the Decalogue as Jesus taught us about the spirit of the Law.

Who are the saints? Have you not read Corinthians? No I'm not justifying nor promoting sin.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

More affirmation of that "7 point list" from pro-sunday sources. In fact the majority of pro-sunday scholarship accepts the fact that the TEN Commandments still apply to the saints.

===============================================


Well then what about all the other pro-sunday groups as listed in my signature line? What about the Catholic church for example?

It is interesting that even the RCC confirms many of those 7 points.

Dies Domini is a papal encyclical on the subject of Sunday and how it is regarded by tradition to be a holy day rooted in the 10 commandments as a continuation of the 4th commandment

(numbered 3 by Roman Catholics Dies Domini, John Paul II, 5 July 1998 - Apostolic Letter - link

========================== Dies Domini begin
Dies Domini pt 11
"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

=============================== Dies Domini ... end quote

The quote I gave from Dies Domini is fully consistent with the examples I gave from the Catholic Catechism - at least that is what we appear to have in the details of those quotes.

No one has an example of Dies Domini or the CCC objecting to the 7 points listed in the OP. No not one.

I offer a perfect example to test the points -- in quotes from the CCC.

I say again that 6 of the 7 points appear here.

Secondary source for the Catechism: This is a link -Catholic Catechism Section Two Ten Comm

[2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29


(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

There are 627 commands. So no were aren't under the 10 commandants because they are part of the 627 commandants. Also this law was giving to Israel not to gentiles . Gentiles were not udner the law.

 

[BobRyan]

1050 commandments... NT

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Let us labour to be saved

Hmmmm.... we don't have to work to be saved. So this is just a bunch of laws that were picked. This is just O.T but N.T and that's what the N.T is not suppose to be. Jesus is who we followed.Many of these look more like common sense. I mean O.T was about works to be saved. N.T is about following Jesus to be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Let us labour to be saved

Hmmmm.... we don't have to work to be saved. So this is just a bunch of laws that were picked. This is just O.T but N.T and that's what the N.T is not suppose to be. Jesus is who we followed.Many of these look more like common sense. I mean O.T was about works to be saved. N.T is about following Jesus to be saved.

Like this?

Jesus said "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

1 John 5:1-4 we show Love to God and love to the children of God - by keeping God's Commandments

Rev 14:12 - the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Where Eph 6:2 - the FIFTH commandment is the "First commandment with a promise"??

Or like this?

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

And 1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" even in the NT -- still

So then Romans 6 "Under the LAW" vs "Under Grace"

Rom 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
..
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death

Rom 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


1 John 2:1 "these things I write to you that you SIN NOT"
1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
1 John 3: 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.


1 Cor 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

 

[SayaOtonashi]

While yes we should follow God's commands but some of these aren't necessary to be saved. works will not get you saved only Jesus.For example headcovering is not what Paul was speaking about.

 

[BobRyan]

The Law of God is not a means of salvation.

Thus we cannot say "Do not take God's name in vain and this will earn your way to heaven".

But that is not an argument against keeping God's commandment

 

[SayaOtonashi]

You must Follow Jesus to be saved that's it. Walk as he did but many of the things you list are just what Christians learn to do. We learn them. I was just a bit confused with of them since they aren't commandants but about a certain event that deals with a commandant. For example headcovering is about head covering but rather the married women were wear their hair loose. They were following pagan idolatry since they never learned

http://www.wholebible.com/head_covering.htm

 

[SayaOtonashi]

613 if you want to follow the sabbath there are 613 commandants.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

hmmm....God revealed 618 commandants not just 10.

https://hischarisisenough.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/we-are-lawsless-believers-not-lawless-believers/
https://hischarisisenough.wordpress...s-written-by-the-holy-spirit-in-our-hearts-3/

 

[BobRyan]

613 if you want to follow the sabbath there are 613 commandants.

you mean - If you want to keep the commandment against "taking God's name in vain"? A commandment never quoted even in part -- in the NT (unlike the Sabbath Commandment that is quoted in-part a number of times in the NT)

1050 commandments... NT

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands


For all eternity - after the cross -

Is 66:23 " FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship"

 

[BobRyan]

The Law of God is not a means of salvation.
Thus we cannot say "Do not take God's name in vain and this will earn your way to heaven".
But that is not an argument against keeping God's commandment

You must Follow Jesus to be saved that's it. Walk as he did

Matt 4 - Jesus kept Sabbath.
Matt 5 - Jesus said not to imagine that He was about deleting the Commandments of God.
John 14:15 - Jesus quotes Exodus 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" saying "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"
Mark 7:6-13 -- this is what Jesus taught about those trying to delete/downsize/edit one of the TEN Commandments.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

but many of the things you list are just what Christians learn to do. We learn them.

We learn - by reading and accepting the Word of God - not reading and rejecting the Word of God.

Jesus taught "From ALL the scriptures" Luke 24:27
Heb 8:6-10 says it was CHRIST that gave mankind the TEN Commandments.

1 John 5:1-4 says that the way that we SHOW that we Love God is that we "KEEP God's Commandments".

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments"

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Read the Word of God -- yes.
Read and then reject the Word of God -- "no".

1 Tim 3:16 "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine and correction"

 

[vinsight4u]

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