Calvinism, explained.

[Marvin Knox]

How so. How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?

It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not "coercive. For some reason you left out the most important word of my quote.

If God predestined man to sin then surely it is God that is responsible for what God did. How could man close to not do what God predestined him to do ?

Man chose and that choice was what God had predestined that He would do. If it wasn't - God wouldn't have allowed the man to choose that way.

God is responsible for predestining everything that happens. No doubt about it.

Man is also responsible for the choices he makes.

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it.

Beats me how you can conclude this. Even Augustine, who invented predestination, backtracked on it in his later publications.

Augustine did not invent predestination.

"He has predestined to happen" you say, how is this not deterministic?

It is deterministic. But it is not coercive determinism.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's about the shallowest and most wrongheaded portrayal of the concept of predestination I have ever heard.

ToBeLoved - not so much - but your amen to that drivel is still very disappointing.

What are you talking about? I hope you can show me the post.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Can someone who is of Calvinistic thought address my question about the days of Noah, if God is managing everything, always?

 

[Marvin Knox]

What are you talking about? I hope you can show me the post.

Lol. Choose between a) and a)

Now that makes sense.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That is an Amen?

Nice to be quoted accurately

 

[EmSw]

Marvin, does God's predestination for a person change?

 

[Marvin Knox]

That is an Amen?

Nice to be quoted accurately

Yes - a "now that makes sense" is an amen.

An amen is a very short statement expressing agreement or approval.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin, does God's predestination for a person change?

No - of course not.

Please resist the temptation to say or ask anything else stupid.

I'm not likely to answer.

 

[EmSw]

No - of course not.

Please resist the temptation to say or ask anything else stupid.

I'm not likely to answer.

It's not stupid at all, Preacher. If God predestined you to be a lost sinner, you had better hope He changes His mind.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes - a "now that makes sense" is an amen.

An amen is a very short statement expressing agreement or approval.

It was sarcasm.

That the choice of a) or a)

What is the choice if the two choices are exactly the same?

Maybe you do not get it. I did say lol also, which I would say does not classify it as agreement, nor an Amen.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It was sarcasm.

That the choice of a) or a)

What is the choice if the two choices are exactly the same?

Maybe you do not get it. I did say lol also, which I would say does not classify it as agreement, nor an Amen.

So - do I understand that you believe that little skit to be a ridiculous and inaccurate representation of what Calvinism teaches about predestination?

Do you believe (quite correctly) that the "God of predestination" doesn't limit anyone to just one choice?

I re-read your post a couple of times and it seemed that you were saying that you found the silly skit to be quite witty and an accurate depiction of the what Calvinism teaches.

If I misunderstood you, please clarify (or not as you choose).

 

[Patmos]

It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not "coercive. For some reason you left out the most important word of my quote.

My bad. But how is it not coercive ? Does man have a choice in the matter ? No, you say!

Man chose and that choice was what God had predestined that He would do. If it wasn't - God wouldn't have allowed the man to choose that way.

God is responsible for predestining everything that happens. No doubt about it.

Man is also responsible for the choices he makes.

So a choice between a) or a). I.e Not a real choice.

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it.

Well. you have lost me completely. God predestines everything that happens, but no, not really, only of something. Does this make sense to anyone ? What am I missing ?

Augustine did not invent predestination.

He invented the version that God predestines to salvation or damnation, now known as hyper Calvinism. Even his own supporters, Not Pelagian followers disagreed with him. Later in Life he retracted his inventions.

It is deterministic. But it is not coercive determinism.

Anyone, please, help me understand this.

 

[Patmos]

That's about the shallowest and most wrongheaded portrayal of the concept of predestination I have ever heard.

The idea that there are people everywhere who read or hear something like that hogwash and think that it's really heady stuff just goes to show how shallow most people are in their theology.

This is the kind of silliness that EmSw might come up with - while thinking it was real cute.

Patmos - I had thought that you were deep enough not to fall for cr*p like that.

ToBeLoved - not so much - but your amen to that drivel is still very disappointing.

It is not a portrayal. It is not trying to put this subject in a bad light. It already has been in a bad light for centuries with no light at the end of the tunnel. This forum would not be here for one.

So please, cut the 'I'm insulted' routine.

Maybe go and read Calvinist Charles Spurgeon. He wrote that he could not renconcile God's Sovereignty with mans free will and therefore responsibility.

He got a load of flak from his own people ( Calvinists). But he pointed out that the Bible teaches both (sovereignty and free will) so he must preach both. He did not make stuff up as a work around, e.g predestination not being determinism or any shanagans like that.

 

[Patmos]

Yes, go to The Westminster Confession of Faith, which will provide you with the full scope of Reformed Theology. It says that God has decreed some for Heaven, and others for Hell.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

Exactly

 

[Patmos]

Option (A) to be born in sin. There is no other option

That's about the shallowest and most wrongheaded portrayal of the concept of predestination I have ever heard.

Really. So what has happened to the 'T' in tulip. If I remember correctly you do not hold to 'L' either.

In the book 'hand in Hand', the Author quotes R. C Sproul who said. "A calvinist not believing in all 5 points is a euphemism for Arminian." I'll check back and find the page reference when I get a moment.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Will anyone address my post #1597 that believes in Calvinism?

I've been patiently waiting ........

 

[Marvin Knox]

So please, cut the 'I'm insulted' routine.

No "routine" from here.

I wasn't insulted by it (or you for that matter). I just found it to be a dishonest portrayal of what predestination means.

.......Spurgeon.......But he pointed out that the Bible teaches both (sovereignty and free will) so he must preach both.

I'm with Spurgeon on this. There is no conflict between the two.

People need to stop making it an either-or by writing dishones skits about "choice a and choice a" and other such silliness.

He did not make stuff up as a work around, e.g predestination not being determinism or any shanagans like that.

He didn't believe that predestination was coercive determinism nor do I.

He believed that sovereignty and free will were totally compatible one with the other.

So do I. I've been saying so here for some time.

It is only those who do not believe in predestination like Spurgeon and I do who claim that predestination means that man has no choice. Hence their silly little skits about choice "a" only and such.

So a choice between a) or a). I.e Not a real choice.

Case in point.

What is the single choice that you claim claim God gave men?

But how is it not coercive ?

Everything that God determines that He will have happen comes about through the means that He uses to bring it to past. The choices of men are the means that He uses to accomplish what He wants accomplished.

That may be good choices (as in the case of Jesus) or it may be bad choices (as in the case of those who crucified Him).

The evil men who killed Christ had a clear choice to make. No one coerced them into making that choice. They will answer for the choice they made.

No one forced anyone to crucify the Lord. But the scriptures are very clear that it was predestined to happen.

The predestination of something does not negate the reality of the means that brings that something to past. Rather those means establish what was predestined to happen.

 

[Patmos]

Well, let's think about this.

In the days of Noah, things were so bad, that only Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives were salvagable. Which to protect the bloodline of Jesus Christ all that bad blood had to be wiped out.

So then, it does not seem like God is out there micromanaging things. Plus, it took how long to build the ark?

.............

11Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. 13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.

I believe you are correct. God does not need to micromanage things as in predestination, e.g.

...... We are not robots or puppets even though He has predestined all of our actions to occur just as they do.

(I apologise for picking on Marvin again, that is not my purpose.)

The Bible verse you quoted - all flesh had corrupted their way- and because of them that is humans did something God did not determine/predestine them to do. Yet God, infinitely bigger that human logic, can handle anything the human free will can do ( which is has limits, is finite). If it were all a puppet show the surely the Bible would say so!

BTW - I have posted my Objection/question re predestination in a new thread in GT. Apologies for dominating this one.

 

[Thursday]

The predestination of something does not negate the reality of the means that brings that something to past. Rather those means establish what was predestined to happen.

That makes no sense.

If God predestined an event, there is only one possible human choice that can be made.

The bible tells us that God wants all men to be saved. Unless you believe that all men are saved, then you must believe that God allows us to make choices that impact our salvation.

 

[Patmos]

No "routine" from here.

I wasn't insulted by it (or you for that matter).

OK, that's good.

I just found it to be a dishonest portrayal of what predestination means.

As amplified in a following post. None of these are correct

I'm with Spurgeon on this. There is no conflict between the two.

Yes there is, Spurgeon majored on this. He said he "could not reconcile the two."

People need to stop making it an either-or by writing dishones skits about "choice a and choice a" and other such silliness.

So we have a choice to be born innocent - NOT "totally depraved"!
Sorry Marvin, Calvinists here on CF and every where else say the opposite.

He didn't believe that predestination was coercive determinism nor do I.
He believed that sovereignty and free will were totally compatible one with the other.

Absolute rot. Spurgeon majored on this. He said he "could not reconcile the two." Total opposite to compatiblism.

It is only those who do not believe in predestination like Spurgeon and I do who claim that predestination means that man has no choice. Hence their silly little skits about choice "a" only and such.

So we have a choice to be born innocent - NOT "totally depraved"!
Sorry Marvin, Calvinists here on CF and every where else say the opposite.

Case in point.
What is the single choice that you claim claim God gave men?

Huh ???? Get real. I do not, I an an Arminian !

Everything that God determines that He will have happen comes about through the means that He uses to bring it to past. The choices of men are the means that He uses to accomplish what He wants accomplished.....

The predestination of something does not negate the reality of the means that brings that something to past. Rather those means establish what was predestined to happen.

Well, this is statement, not an explanation or rational, just a statement.

How about trying it in GT where I have opened a thread on this sole topic.