Checking for sound theology

[Hieronymus]

But you shouldn't shoehorn the resurrection quite in there...
Because it is Jesus' death that appeases God's Wrath, not the resurrection.
The resurrection is the assurance for man in Christ to live.

Hmmm....
That's incomplete..

 

[mark46]

Appeasing God's wrath is one interpretation of the death and resurrection of Christ, but by no means the only one. A more mainstream view is that of reconciliation.

hmm

I don't know about this being mainstream. I strongly agree that your view is that of that the Orthodox and of many of the early Church fathers.

Yes, Jesus died so that we might be reconciled with God (removing the barrier between us and God), and yes Jesus rose that we might have eternal life.

My "objection" is that I think that the substitutionary/legalistic view is strongly ingrained in Western theology and practice.

 

[mark46]

I am wanting to make a short video (~1-2 minute) with a concise, dense, accurate message of the gospel.I am aware it's possible to mistakenly write things which aren't true, which is why I'm asking this. My memory of specific verses isn't very good so making sure/biblically proving, all of which I am wanting to write is true is somewhat hard. Mishandling Gods word greatly worries me and I don't want to mistakenly eisegesis verses when I come to research/quote verses to back up this. The following script is what I've wrote so far and is the essence of the gospel how I've understood it from reading the bible and listening to sermons over the years. I would like as much people, preferably reformed/orthodox, to look at what I've wrote, tell me if I need correction, or need to add anything in? I want it to flow as logically and biblically as possible in a concise short fashion.



Man sinned against God

The nature of sin is infinitely evil, evidenced by the majesty of whom it’s against.

God is morally perfect in justice; the judgement of sin can’t be eternally postponed, which would be to disregard sin hence invalidate Gods justice.

The result of God’s justice and man’s sin is divine wrath.

Divine Wrath is the application of justice through retribution according to each’s deeds

Only God’s infinite worthiness could account for the atonement of the infinite weight our of sin.

God clothed himself in flesh so that he could physically bear Gods wrath

Therefore, Jesus’ death appeased the wrath of god for those who by faith repent and trust the propitiation provided by Jesus.

This was a free act of Grace, not deserved nor achievable, but brought about by Gods unfathomable love.

Through this, reconciliation to God is achieved and true enjoyment of God can be experienced

Who is the audience?

Why do feel the need for new videos?

I don't think that your approach is one that will convince anyone. Is that your purpose?

One needs to start either with a problem or with a need.

If you are simply explaining Christianity to those who already believe in God, then you might start with God.

 

[_Jordan_]

Thanks for the reply, and I appreciate your honesty, don't worry about offending me as I understand your aren't being malicious but wanting to stand for truth. I respect that but I do think I disagree with you on the topic of Gods wrath. Romans 3, 23-26, Paul states the reason I would disagree and he probably says it much better than I could. I will show the ESV translation, but others translate the exact same meaning.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. Romans 3, 23-25

"Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be ..."

the KJV renders it

"Whom [Jesus] God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness..."

The NIV renders this.

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood..."


The phrases "propitiation", "Sacrifice of atonement", all declare that Christ's death "appeased the wrath of God for all our sins"

It then goes on to say, "this was to show Gods righteousness because of divine forbearance he passed over former sins". Yes he does forgive people without first satisfying his wrath (I.E OT saints), BUT for the sake of his own righteousness he will punish all sin, via his wrath (either in Hell, or in Jesus' death, which was completely aligned with the fathers will john6:38). There is a mystery, a divine reality to how this bears itself out on the cross, but never-the-less seems true from this scripture. I hope you understand what I mean, I just don't understand, how do you deal Rm3,23-25? and I am sure many other places (my memory as I said isn't very good). Sorry but on this I have to disagree, if you want to leave it there that's ok. I want to thank you for your help and also helping me out with everything else, I do really appreciate it and the discussion. Thank you and God bless

 

[_Jordan_]

Who is the audience?

Why do feel the need for new videos?

I don't think that your approach is one that will convince anyone. Is that your purpose?

One needs to start either with a problem or with a need.

If you are simply explaining Christianity to those who already believe in God, then you might start with God.

In my views, I don't feel it is my responsibility to convince anyone, God and him alone can bring about the fruit of salvation and sanctification, My responsibility is to be faithful to his word and to present it (Romans 10:14).

Yes, people have probably heard the message before, does that mean someone hasn't, if the content is true and accurate what is the need to restrain from broadcasting it? I may actually scrap what I have and just make a video around Romans3,21-26 as this seems to be the essence of what I was wanting to communicate and who better to word it than Paul.

In this world, It is my discernment that there is a massive problem. That is sin. sadly from my experience (and yes this may only be me and what I've listened to) even the church sometimes refusing to make much of this problem. How can we truly appreciate (or sadly for some people, "accept") the gospel/ good news if we don't know why it's good. The truth is the problem is sin, people need to heard about this sin problem, and the answer to this sin problem, which is Jesus Christ who is able to save the uttermost. So in conclusion, I want to make a video cause why not, my you tube channel is small, the likelihood is very little if any will see it, but even if I can help 1 person, atheist or not, that is great. I want to use all of what I have to serve God, whether much or little.

 

[mark46]

The interpretation of the message of God as the wrathful judge with the need for blood payment by Jesus has probably driven millions of people from the faith.

IMHO, such a message is NOT the message of the gospel. Perhaps more importantly, it is not the GOOD NEWS that will bring folks to the faith, or bring them back to the faith.

We are long beyond threatening folks with hell if we don't obey the laws of a vengeful God who will punish us if we aren't good enough.
========
Missionaries have understood this for centuries. In Africa, there is often only ONE book of Scripture translated into the native language: The Gospel According To John. And hundreds of millions have heard the message that God is Love, and that God loved us so much that he came to earth to remove the barrier between humans and God, and has assured us eternal life. We just must accept the free gift of life.

For those in pain, it is critical to hear that God loves everyone. It is not even useful for them to understand that God will punish them.

 

[Catherineanne]

No, it is both Christ dying on the cross.

You are welcome to your opinion, of course.

 

[Catherineanne]

hmm

I don't know about this being mainstream. I strongly agree that your view is that of that the Orthodox and of many of the early Church fathers.

Yes, Jesus died so that we might be reconciled with God (removing the barrier between us and God), and yes Jesus rose that we might have eternal life.

My "objection" is that I think that the substitutionary/legalistic view is strongly ingrained in Western theology and practice.

I think you will find that US mainstream (which is not at all mainstream) is not the same as world mainstream. I was talking world mainstream.

 

[mark46]

I think you will find that US mainstream (which is not at all mainstream) is not the same as world mainstream. I was talking world mainstream.

The view of Roman Catholics in the US is the same as the 2 billion in other parts of the world. Perhaps, I am incorrect.

Surely, "mainstream" is defined by numbers.

 

[Hieronymus]

You are welcome to your opinion, of course.

It's the Gospel John 3:16

 

[_Jordan_]

The interpretation of the message of God as the wrathful judge with the need for blood payment by Jesus has probably driven millions of people from the faith.

IMHO, such a message is NOT the message of the gospel. Perhaps more importantly, it is not the GOOD NEWS that will bring folks to the faith, or bring them back to the faith.

We are long beyond threatening folks with hell if we don't obey the laws of a vengeful God who will punish us if we aren't good enough.
========
Missionaries have understood this for centuries. In Africa, there is often only ONE book of Scripture translated into the native language: The Gospel According To John. And hundreds of millions have heard the message that God is Love, and that God loved us so much that he came to earth to remove the barrier between humans and God, and has assured us eternal life. We just must accept the free gift of life.

For those in pain, it is critical to hear that God loves everyone. It is not even useful for them to understand that God will punish them.

May I ask, what makes the gospel, the good news?

What exactly does someone repent from, and trust Jesus for?

I truly understand what you are meaning to say and I get it. Please forgive me if I've emphasised one side of the story more than the other. I am not infallible. Yet the doctrine of sin (and leading from this, judgement) are true. God is love, and what make his love so special is that it is unconditional and takes form as grace. to truley understand the gospel, you need to understand the need for it, I.E sin. Yes we need be compassion, addressing it in it, making sure not to stress one more than the other.

 

[Catherineanne]

It's the Gospel John 3:16

Because that is exactly what you said.

Not.

 

[Catherineanne]

The view of Roman Catholics in the US is the same as the 2 billion in other parts of the world. Perhaps, I am incorrect.

Surely, "mainstream" is defined by numbers.

One would hope so, but I suspect the evangelical flavour of the US in general is somewhat catching.

 

[mark46]

One would hope so, but I suspect the evangelical flavour of the US in general is somewhat catching.

Agreed

 

[mark46]

May I ask, what makes the gospel, the good news?

What exactly does someone repent from, and trust Jesus for?

I truly understand what you are meaning to say and I get it. Please forgive me if I've emphasised one side of the story more than the other. I am not infallible. Yet the doctrine of sin (and leading from this, judgement) are true. God is love, and what make his love so special is that it is unconditional and takes form as grace. to truley understand the gospel, you need to understand the need for it, I.E sin. Yes we need be compassion, addressing it in it, making sure not to stress one more than the other.

The Good News is contained in the Book Of John, many, many times.

 

[Tree of Life]

I am wanting to make a short video (~1-2 minute) with a concise, dense, accurate message of the gospel.I am aware it's possible to mistakenly write things which aren't true, which is why I'm asking this. My memory of specific verses isn't very good so making sure/biblically proving, all of which I am wanting to write is true is somewhat hard. Mishandling Gods word greatly worries me and I don't want to mistakenly eisegesis verses when I come to research/quote verses to back up this. The following script is what I've wrote so far and is the essence of the gospel how I've understood it from reading the bible and listening to sermons over the years. I would like as much people, preferably reformed/orthodox, to look at what I've wrote, tell me if I need correction, or need to add anything in? I want it to flow as logically and biblically as possible in a concise short fashion.



Man sinned against God

The nature of sin is infinitely evil, evidenced by the majesty of whom it’s against.

God is morally perfect in justice; the judgement of sin can’t be eternally postponed, which would be to disregard sin hence invalidate Gods justice.

The result of God’s justice and man’s sin is divine wrath.

Divine Wrath is the application of justice through retribution according to each’s deeds

Only God’s infinite worthiness could account for the atonement of the infinite weight our of sin.

God clothed himself in flesh so that he could physically bear Gods wrath

Therefore, Jesus’ death appeased the wrath of god for those who by faith repent and trust the propitiation provided by Jesus.

This was a free act of Grace, not deserved nor achievable, but brought about by Gods unfathomable love.

Through this, reconciliation to God is achieved and true enjoyment of God can be experienced

A common Gospel schema is Creation->Fall->Redemption->Restoration. Your presentation here seems to be missing information about Creation and Restoration. The story doesn't start with our sin, nor does it end with simply being reconciled to God in justification.

 

[_Jordan_]

A common Gospel schema is Creation->Fall->Redemption->Restoration. Your presentation here seems to be missing information about Creation and Restoration. The story doesn't start with our sin, nor does it end with simply being reconciled to God in justification.

Yes, Thank you, now looking at it, I was wrong in calling it a summary of the gospel. I suppose that is a difficult task to do as it's a gloriously dense message. If I were to use the script I initially made, I would perhaps title it "why the cross?" or something more apprioate. I am glad I made this as I do think I could have been inaccurate is saying that in it's the entire gospel. Therefore, I've decided to not put something in my own words and use Romans 3-21, which answers that same question, "why the cross?" Thank you for the help God bless

 

[Hieronymus]

Because that is exactly what you said.

Not.

Apparently we have some communication problem here...
I'll have a look at what might have gone wrong.

[later]
Hmm... Can't find the cause..
O well..

 

[pdudgeon]

Only God’s infinite worthiness could account for the atonement of the infinite weight our of sin.

God clothed himself in flesh so that he could physically bear Gods wrath

Therefore, Jesus’ death.....

somewhere in the above part of your narative there should be mention of two things;
1. that throughout all of history, evidence is seen of man's continued, willful sin. But also seen is the continued love and patience of God towards His undeserving creation.

2. that it was God's love for us while we were yet sinners and Jesus' perfect love of the Father, which resulted in Jesus' perfect obedience to God through His, life, death, and resurrection for our sake. It was also this perfect love for and faith in God which sustained Jesus in all His trials and death.

job well done!

 

[expos4ever]

Hi Jordan,

I realize that when you post a sweeping treatment of what you see as the central Christian message, you will no doubt receive floods of argumentative posts suggesting you have strayed from the truth. I will simply assert two things for your consideration:

1. A central element of Jesus' message was the advent of the Kingdom of God - the rule of God over this present world;

2. The atonement can be seen as entailing more than "substitutionary atonement" - the New Testament also represents the atonement as achieving, at least to some degree the defeat of those powers that work against God's purposes.

I am happy to discuss this more if you wish.