Why does God leave no tracks?

[toLiJC]

I suspect I asked this question before in a different form, because I wonder about it a lot. Sometimes I like to imagine a benevolent God that I can talk to and so forth. I tell myself that maybe the Judeo Christian God is fiction, but my more generic chameleon-like God might actually exist.

The problem is that science can never find God's tracks. I ask myself if there is some inherent aspect of God that makes it impossible for Him to leave tracks. I ask myself if God can actually do anything meaningful without leaving tracks. Then there is the imaginary friend possibility. Imaginary friends serve a purpose and leave tracks in the real world even though they exist only in a human's imagination. I suppose the imaginary friend God that exists in human imaginations leaves tracks. Is it possible that God is real, but He restricts Himself to our imaginations? In other words, there is a real God that inspires humans to create imaginary friend Gods in their minds that then interact with the world? Could science tell if there was a real God behind these imaginary friend Gods?

God is the system Administrator of life for all the universe, which means His part is to provide the souls with abundant and everlasting life without making them feel like (His) puppets/slaves (in His hands), i.e. just to provide them with abundant and everlasting lives making them feel free from any possible bondage/slavery (which also means to provide them with human forms of life), that is why He cannot afford to be visible/perceptible to them, because if we see Him, then we will see how all created things/beings (including the elementary particles and objects of the cosmos) are (so to speak) a kind of puppets in His hands, i.e. we can thus even find ourselves to be a kind of puppets in the hands of one universal giant (a giant of universal scale), in other words, we will see, feel and realize that we do not move any part of the universe, including of our own bodies, but that one universal giant moves everything, that is why there are no tracks of Him

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.",

1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Blessings

 

[Peter1000]

This is an argument from ignorance. Just because we don't know something doesn't give any validity to "goddidit."

You can make your ignorance statement all you want. But the scientific facts are: there are 40 or more scientifically recognized universal constants that drive the universe. These sub-atomic constants have been a mystery to science for many years. How did they come into existence, no idea. How do they maintain themselves, no idea. A little smaller or a little larger, no universe. It is perplexing.

An ignorant person would not explore alternatives other than what science can theorize about. The prudent person would look at other alternatives besides random chance natural happenings with a probability so near 0, that it makes the possibility 0.

So let's not use the word "ignorance", because it can go both ways.

 

[HitchSlap]

You can make your ignorance statement all you want. But the scientific facts are: there are 40 or more scientifically recognized universal constants that drive the universe. These sub-atomic constants have been a mystery to science for many years. How did they come into existence, no idea. How do they maintain themselves, no idea. A little smaller or a little larger, no universe. It is perplexing.

An ignorant person would not explore alternatives other than what science can theorize about. The prudent person would look at other alternatives besides random chance natural happenings with a probability so near 0, that it makes the possibility 0.

So let's not use the word "ignorance", because it can go both ways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

This is you. ^^^

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You can make your ignorance statement all you want. But the scientific facts are: there are 40 or more scientifically recognized universal constants that drive the universe. These sub-atomic constants have been a mystery to science for many years. How did they come into existence, no idea. How do they maintain themselves, no idea. A little smaller or a little larger, no universe. It is perplexing.

An ignorant person would not explore alternatives other than what science can theorize about. The prudent person would look at other alternatives besides random chance natural happenings with a probability so near 0, that it makes the possibility 0.

So let's not use the word "ignorance", because it can go both ways.

Let's assume the universe is fine-tuned. How did a God with random properties pull that off?

 

[Peter1000]

God is the system Administrator of life for all the universe, which means His part is to provide the souls with abundant and everlasting life without making them feel like (His) puppets/slaves (in His hands), i.e. just to provide them with abundant and everlasting lives making them feel free from any possible bondage/slavery (which also means to provide them with human forms of life), that is why He cannot afford to be visible/perceptible to them, because if we see Him, then we will see how all created things/beings (including the elementary particles and objects of the cosmos) are (so to speak) a kind of puppets in His hands, i.e. we can thus even find ourselves to be a kind of puppets in the hands of one universal giant (a giant of universal scale), in other words, we will see, feel and realize that we do not move any part of the universe, including of our own bodies, but that one universal giant moves everything, that is why there are no tracks of Him

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.",

1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Blessings

Why would you make a statement like: "that one universal giant moves everything, that is why there are not tracks of Him". No wonder atheists and agnostics eat Christians for lunch.

Somewhere in the bible it says that the earth, and the beauties of the earth are there to testify of God's handiworks. IOW, the incredible, unique, complex, beautiful world that we live in is the tracks that flow directly back to ID. There are so many tracks that the prudent person is almost forced to admit there is something more than pure natural random chance.

That something more is a highly intelligent being, who is omniscient and knows all the universal constants and can command the elements to organize into a universe that stretches all the way to our solar system and our special earth that was placed by ID in the exact, perfect spot near the sun so that it's position and orbit can produce life abundantly. The perfect atmospheric pressure, and the perfect electro-magnetic system, the right water cycles and the tectonic plates with a plasma center construction are perfect tracks to God. No other planet that science can see is like the works that God has performed with this earth. The earth screams to men to believe in it's organizer, it's ID, it's God.

So don't be so fast to give God away. Follow His tracks, given to testify of Him, He is alive and well.

 

[Peter1000]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

This is you. ^^^

Really, is it not true that you used the word "ignorance" first? I only maintain that with a possiblity of 0 for a random chance happening, a prudent person would look to other alternatives.

This statement is from your article: In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof. You used the "ignorance" card, so read your article again.

BTW, Darwins signiture theory is being reluctantly abandoned by science, because today's knowledge is far advanced from the 1800's. DNA and genetics are proving to be far more sophisticated to explain "natural selection".

Darwin's theories cannot explain how non-living matter, became living-breathing-reproductive matter (in any series of steps, small or large or inbetween).
That link has not been bridged after hundreds of years of experiments, scientists have not been able to produce "spontaneous generation" of anything. Oh, wasn't that proven by science to be a deplorable hoax.

Today science has pretty much discarded the words "spontaneous generation", but they have not dscarded the idea. If they discard the premise that non-living matter, by some unknown magical component, can become living-breathing-reproductive matter, then they would have to discard the entire evolution theory. Evolutionary theory is the only non-god theory going, so they don't want to let it go. So today there is a new word that replaces the out-dated "spontaneous generation" and it is "biogenesis". This new approach however is sludging its way through the non-productive experiments, and will also, given time, find itself on the compose pile of rotten theories.

What it amounts to is all you have is random chance natural processes and the equals 0. Move your faith from Darwin and 0 to an intelligent being, ID, that first programmed our DNA and set it in motion and brought forth life. We don't have all the answers, but at least we can look to an ID who does. It takes less faith to believe in ID than in 0 possiblilities.

 

[HitchSlap]

Really, is it not true that you used the word "ignorance" first? I only maintain that with a possiblity of 0 for a random chance happening, a prudent person would look to other alternatives.

This statement is from your article: In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof. You used the "ignorance" card, so read your article again.

BTW, Darwins signiture theory is being reluctantly abandoned by science, because today's knowledge is far advanced from the 1800's. DNA and genetics are proving to be far more sophisticated to explain "natural selection".

Darwin's theories cannot explain how non-living matter, became living-breathing-reproductive matter (in any series of steps, small or large or inbetween).
That link has not been bridged after hundreds of years of experiments, scientists have not been able to produce "spontaneous generation" of anything. Oh, wasn't that proven by science to be a deplorable hoax.

Today science has pretty much discarded the words "spontaneous generation", but they have not dscarded the idea. If they discard the premise that non-living matter, by some unknown magical component, can become living-breathing-reproductive matter, then they would have to discard the entire evolution theory. Evolutionary theory is the only non-god theory going, so they don't want to let it go. So today there is a new word that replaces the out-dated "spontaneous generation" and it is "biogenesis". This new approach however is sludging its way through the non-productive experiments, and will also, given time, find itself on the compose pile of rotten theories.

What it amounts to is all you have is random chance natural processes and the equals 0. Move your faith from Darwin and 0 to an intelligent being, ID, that first programmed our DNA and set it in motion and brought forth life. We don't have all the answers, but at least we can look to an ID who does. It takes less faith to believe in ID than in 0 possiblilities.

If the possibility is 0, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What you're pawning off here is the anthropic principle, another fallacy. The world is as we find it. Don't be so arrogant as to presume it couldn't have been any other way.

 

[Peter1000]

Yes, you made a claim and I asked for the information.

Can you provide evidence for your claim?

Yes, or no?

Yes

 

[HitchSlap]

Yes

What are you waiting for?

 

[bhsmte]

Yes

Cool.

Whenever you are ready.

 

[toLiJC]

Why would you make a statement like: "that one universal giant moves everything, that is why there are not tracks of Him". No wonder atheists and agnostics eat Christians for lunch.

Somewhere in the bible it says that the earth, and the beauties of the earth are there to testify of God's handiworks. IOW, the incredible, unique, complex, beautiful world that we live in is the tracks that flow directly back to ID. There are so many tracks that the prudent person is almost forced to admit there is something more than pure natural random chance.

That something more is a highly intelligent being, who is omniscient and knows all the universal constants and can command the elements to organize into a universe that stretches all the way to our solar system and our special earth that was placed by ID in the exact, perfect spot near the sun so that it's position and orbit can produce life abundantly. The perfect atmospheric pressure, and the perfect electro-magnetic system, the right water cycles and the tectonic plates with a plasma center construction are perfect tracks to God. No other planet that science can see is like the works that God has performed with this earth. The earth screams to men to believe in it's organizer, it's ID, it's God.

So don't be so fast to give God away. Follow His tracks, given to testify of Him, He is alive and well.

ok, but it seems to me that the question of cloudyday2 in the o.p. is why is it so that God cannot be seen/felt?!, we can see His creature and creation, but He (Himself) is not visible/perceptible to us, why is it so?!

Blessings

 

[Peter1000]

If the possibility is 0, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What you're pawning off here is the anthropic principle, another fallacy. The world is as we find it. Don't be so arrogant as to presume it couldn't have been any other way.

The possibility is 0 for a random chance happening. It is not 0 for an ID universe.

Now you are using the word "arrogant". Reread your article again, only this time substitute "arrogant" for "ignorance".

It would, however, be arrogant to presume it couldn't have been any other way. Because I am not an arrogant type, I have considered many other ways. But in the end it always added up to: 0 possibilities of random chance happenings (because that is what drives all the different scientific theories) or ID.

You must work out all the possible ways, and if you are honest, the answer for you will be the same answer that I got. Don't be so arrogant as to think that ID is absurd. It is the only possible way.

Again, one day, science and ID will present the exact same conclusion.

 

[Peter1000]

Cool.

Whenever you are ready.

Google "universal constants", or "finely tuned universe" and read all the evidence for yourself. You will be impressed.

 

[Davian]

Google "universal constants", or "finely tuned universe" and read all the evidence for yourself. You will be impressed.

Not at all, as I have also googled:

Apophenia, the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data.

Confirmation bias, in psychology and cognitive science, the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.

Agenticity, the tendency to believe that the world is controlled by invisible intentional agents.

 

[Peter1000]

ok, but it seems to me that the question of cloudyday2 in the o.p. is why is it so that God cannot be seen/felt?!, we can see His creature and creation, but He (Himself) is not visible/perceptible to us, why is it so?!

Blessings

His non-visible/non-perceptible qualities have been assigned to Him by philosophers and religious doctors, who cannot get close to Him. Even the bible says things about Him that seem to make Him invisible and unapproachable. This is not the case. He is invisible only because He chooses not be be seen, not because He cannot be seen. He is unapproachable only when He chooses to be unapprachable, not because He is not approachable.

God is your Father in Heaven, He wants you to know Him. He sent His son Jesus to testify of Him. Jesus even said once that if you see me, you see the Father. Not that they are 1 in the same person, but because Jesus's person looks just like his Father's person. They are identical in appearance to each other.
God the Father has been seen at least 2 times as recorded in the bible, and He has been heard 2 or 3 times also as recorded in the bible. Jesus of course has been seen by thousands. It is a rare occurance when God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are together all in the same place at the same time. That event is recorded in the bible at the baptism of Jesus.

So ID/God is an intelligent being that has booted up this universe, solar system, and our wonderful earth for 1 reason. It is for God to perpetuate His species. God created this incredible universe for 1 reason and that is for us. We are literally His children and He wants us to live with Him after this earth experience, so do good and love God and your neighbor and you will have an extraordinary eternity.

 

[bhsmte]

Google "universal constants", or "finely tuned universe" and read all the evidence for yourself. You will be impressed.

How about the person who made the claim impresses me?

 

[bhsmte]

The possibility is 0 for a random chance happening. It is not 0 for an ID universe.

Now you are using the word "arrogant". Reread your article again, only this time substitute "arrogant" for "ignorance".

It would, however, be arrogant to presume it couldn't have been any other way. Because I am not an arrogant type, I have considered many other ways. But in the end it always added up to: 0 possibilities of random chance happenings (because that is what drives all the different scientific theories) or ID.

You must work out all the possible ways, and if you are honest, the answer for you will be the same answer that I got. Don't be so arrogant as to think that ID is absurd. It is the only possible way.

Again, one day, science and ID will present the exact same conclusion.

Can you provide the scientific definition of ID?

Can you provide the scientific falsifiable test, to determine if ID is present or not?

 

[Peter1000]

Not at all, as I have also googled:

Apophenia, the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data.

Confirmation bias, in psychology and cognitive science, the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors.

Agenticity, the tendency to believe that the world is controlled by invisible intentional agents.

All your high-sounding, scholarly words and all your time, and all your efforts are not getting us any closer to the truth about how the universe came into existence or how life got started on earth.

I suspect that the reason "agenticity" came to be a word is because science can't tie down the source and maintenance of the universal constants. So some astute scientist said, since we can't figure it out, there must be a 3rd party agent that did the work. Smart scientist, but probably lost his job. Christians have just put a name to this agent, ID or God.

I do not suffer from Apophenia because I do not percieve meaningful patterns within random data. That is the problem that science must overcome. I percieve that the data that is available confirms that random chance happenings like a universe just happening by are impossible. It is because of impossible data that Agenticity was considered.

I do have confirmation bias, but so do you, we both suffer from this condition. You probably did not even google "universal constants, or fine tuned universe". You bypassed this study to go directly to a useless study of apophenia, agenticity, and confirmation bias.

What's the word for a person who ignores evidence of ID, because they are so sure that there is no ID?

 

[toLiJC]

His non-visible/non-perceptible qualities have been assigned to Him by philosophers and religious doctors, who cannot get close to Him. Even the bible says things about Him that seem to make Him invisible and unapproachable. This is not the case. He is invisible only because He chooses not be be seen, not because He cannot be seen. He is unapproachable only when He chooses to be unapprachable, not because He is not approachable.

God is your Father in Heaven, He wants you to know Him. He sent His son Jesus to testify of Him. Jesus even said once that if you see me, you see the Father. Not that they are 1 in the same person, but because Jesus's person looks just like his Father's person. They are identical in appearance to each other.
God the Father has been seen at least 2 times as recorded in the bible, and He has been heard 2 or 3 times also as recorded in the bible. Jesus of course has been seen by thousands. It is a rare occurance when God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are together all in the same place at the same time. That event is recorded in the bible at the baptism of Jesus.

So ID/God is an intelligent being that has booted up this universe, solar system, and our wonderful earth for 1 reason. It is for God to perpetuate His species. God created this incredible universe for 1 reason and that is for us. We are literally His children and He wants us to live with Him after this earth experience, so do good and love God and your neighbor and you will have an extraordinary eternity.

what you tell me here is nothing new to me

Blessings

 

[Peter1000]

How about the person who made the claim impresses me?

Let me give you 1 of the "universal constants" that means life or death in our universe.

A proton always has a mass of 1.672 x 10^-27
An electron always has a mass of 9.109 x 10^-31
The proton mass divided by the neutron mass = 1836.15267389
See on www.physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?mpsme

This ratio is an important scientific ratio and has its own scientific symbol (u) and is considered a miraculous constant because it has held to be true since the beginning of time and in all quadrants of the universe.

Science cannot explain how this ratio came into existence and they cannot explain how all protons and electrons ever existing can maintain this constant ratio.

Science does know this: this ratio is so perfectly fine tuned that if it were larger or smaller by just
1 in 10^37, there would be no life in the universe.

So how did this constant get set up in the first place and how after billions of years does a proton always have a mass of 1.672 x 10^-27 and an electron always have a mass of 9.109 x 10^-31. It is so important that this ratio stay just this precise or life does not exist. The only plausible explanation is ID with a full knowledge of the univeral constants and their importance for life. Chance doesn't have a chance with this kind of precision.

This is just 1, there are 39+ more. Then when you get done with that, I will tell you more wonderful scientific things about the earth that create tracks directly leading to ID.