.

[Don Maurer]

Scofield's knowledge far surpasses mine, assuming you esteem his understanding above your own but maybe you're smarter than the both of us. Anyhow, here's his comment. He calls the natural man a "Christian".

Sunlover1, I must admit to chuckling at your post. I apologize to you for this, but the first thing I notice is that ou misspell the name "Schofield." 2nd, you completely misread Schofields quote. I do not know why I find that funny. I have a strange sense of humor. The 3ird thing I found funny was that you assume that Schofield is an authority with thatbrian, or myself? I honestly and sincerely apologize of my bad sense of humor.

Now, more seriously..... I can honestly say that I have no special axe to grind against dispensationalists, but I cannot claim to be a dispensationalist, and I would be shocked if thatbrian is a dispensationalists or looks at Schofield as an authority, but who knows, stranger things happen.

Here is what Schofield is actually saying.... Schofield is not saying that the natural man is a Christian. Not at all. Read your own quote. Schofield is seeing three kinds of people...
1--- The Natural Man --- "the spiritual context of scripture is completely hidden from him...unrenewed through the new birth (speaks of what we have been calling the unregenerate).
2--- The Carnal Man --- "able to understand only the simplest truths "milk" 1 Cor 3:2"
3--- The Spiritual man --- Spirit filled man, walking in the Spirit.

So then, your quote of Schofield id not saying that the natural man is a Christian, but actually agrees with thatbrian, that the natural man is an unbeliever.

I am also trying to restrain myself in another way. I would not agree with Schofield on the issue of the nature of a "Carnal" man? I do not wish to discuss that here, it would be a big dog trail.

 

[sunlover1]

Arsienios, that's quite a bit of bluster. It is painfully obvious that the context is speaking about the gospel. It begins in 1:18 "For the word of the cross"
1:18 and 2:14 are obviously connected with he word foolishness.
(1:18) "is to them that perish foolishness" (2:14) Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him
So the, in the two verses, the word of the cross is the same thing as receiving the things of the Spirit of God.

The passage you quote (1 Cor 2:1-5) does have a denial that Paul came and used concept of pagan greek philosophy. In that sense he did not use "words of wisdom" (see verse 4). He then concludes the section you quoted by talking about the power of God.

Of course the famous passage in Romans 1:16 talks about the same thing....
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel:for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek"
It is the gospel that is the "power of God." The power of God has nothing to do with some mystic sitting on a mountain thinking about Greek philosophy and thinking he is hearing the voice of God. The phrase in 1 Cor 2:5 and Romans 1:16 (the power of God) has everything to do with the Gospel.

Not only is your interpretation wrong, but it is not Gospel centered at all, and so misses completely what the power of God really is.

Actually, we should post the ENTIRE context that we can be sure we're not getting confused.
This one even has little 'subtitles' attached so we can know what the 'subject' of the sermon was/is
I see little need for commentary as it's so clearly about ALL things of God, which of course IS the Gospel
of Christ, the power of God and the Spirit of God and the Word of God, as they are all one!
By Gospel, I don't mean merely "He came and died for us" I mean the ENTIRE gospel (good news!)
The Cross is where it takes place but there's more "to it"! Praise Jesus!

Paul's Message, the Spirit's Power

1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Wisdom from the Spirit of God

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hiddenwisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I would be shocked if thatbrian is a dispensationalists or looks at Schofield as an authority

You've guessed correctly, Don. I'm no fan of dispensationalism.

On top of that, the passage does not really require anything more than a 6th grade education to understand. It just requires some reading comprehension and looking at a larger chunk of text. The problem is that in many churches people sit for years, even decades, under preaching which is almost completely made up of verses taken out of context, with a little anointed jargon thrown in for spice. In other words, people are used to handling the Bible that way.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, that's quite a bit of bluster.

To you it sure is...

It is painfully obvious that the context is speaking about the gospel.

He is speaking to the FOLLOWERS of Christ CRUCIFIED about following Christ crucified...

So here is the series of questions that a Christian must answer yes to each one:

Was Christ Crucified?
Do YOU follow Christ?
Are YOU being crucified?

It begins in 1:18 "For the Word of the Cross"

Indeed - Christ IS the Word of the Cross.

1:18 and 2:14 are obviously connected with the word foolishness.
(1:18) "is to them that perish foolishness"
(2:14) Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him
So the, in the two verses, the word of the cross
is the same thing as receiving the things of the Spirit of God.

They are not the same thing, as you suppose, but the Word of the Cross is what is needed in order to receive the things of the Spirit of God - Paul speaks of it at the beginning of this letter after the greeting in 1:7

1Cor 1:7 So that ye come behind in no Gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

He is clearly showing those in Christ how to attain the Gifts of the Spirit...
Nothing about the Gospel - All about Gifts and Power of the Holy Spirit...

You have ADDED to Scripture here to say he is speaking of the Gospel...
He is instead LIVING the CROSS in DEMONSTRATING to them the Gifts and Power that such a Life in Christ engenders...

The passage you quote (1 Cor 2:1-5) does have a denial
that Paul came and used concept of pagan greek philosophy.

You have again re-written your Bible to add the words "PAGAN GREEK PHILOSOPHY"...
Those words are not in the Bible here...
You have ADDED TO the Bible...

In that sense he did not use "words of wisdom" (see verse 4).

"That sense" is YOUR ADDITION TO THE BIBLE...

Paul did not include your addition to his Holy Words...

He then concludes the section you quoted by talking about the power of God.

1Cor 1:17
For Christ sent me... to preach the Gospel:
not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Can you not understand that Paul is not preaching the Gospel with words?
He is instead IMPARTING the Gospel in Gifts and Power...
It is plainly in the text. Can you diagram a sentence...??
He is not saying the WORDS ABOUT the Cross of Christ...
But KNOWING Christ Crucified...

THAT knowing is Biblical Knowing, as Adam KNEW Eve, as Husband KNOWS wife, and from THAT basis, launcnes into the MYSTERY of KNOWING God in the DISCIPLING of the Cross, co-suffering with Christ, and thereby in YOUR OWN LIFE, "...filling in that which is lacking in the suffering of Christ"...

Of course the famous passage in Romans 1:16 talks about the same thing....

They are parallel, not the same, and the letters are pastoral, written to different Churches with differing issues and differing pastoral needs... To the Romans, he speaks more to intellect, for there is the center of the Power of the Roman Empire, and intellect reigns... In Corinth, he speaks to deeds of power because THAT is how he first approached them...

So when he writes:

"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel:
for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek"

He is writing about the Gospel ABOUT Salvation...
To those in Corinth, he instead writes:
"I determined not to know any thing among you,
save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

The first is the Gospel in words...
The second is the Gospel in deeds...

IF you DO the Gospel in its words, it IS the Power of God unto Salvation...
He is DOING it in Corinth...
In Rome, he is in bonds, talking about it...

It is the gospel that is the "power of God."

It is YOU co-suffering your own cross with Christ Crucified that IS this Gospel, so in that sense he is conflating the Gospel words with the Gospel deeds... In Romans... In Corinth, he is abandoning words in favor of deeds...

The power of God has nothing to do with some mystic sitting on a mountain thinking about Greek philosophy and thinking he is hearing the voice of God.

Roger that!
Never did, never will...
Why bring it up?

The phrase in 1 Cor 2:5 and Romans 1:16 (the power of God) has everything to do with the Gospel.

Gospel means "Good News" and is normally understood as words. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is: "Repent and be baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Following Christ Crucified by taking up one's own cross in denial of self is the reality to which this Good News refers... In Corinth, Paul is DEMONSTRATING the Gifts and Power of God by ONLY KNOWING Christ, and Him Crucified, demonstrating in his own flesh those Gifts and Powers... Thereby he is IMPARTING, and not merely DISCUSSING, the power of co-suffering with Christ by taking up one's own cross...

Not only is your interpretation wrong, but it is not Gospel centered at all, and so misses completely what the power of God really is.

I know you think so... You want to think that in Corinth, Paul is TALKING ABOUT Christ's having paid the legal penalty for our sins on HIS Cross, and that these words ARE the Gospel of Christ... I am telling you that they are not, but that he is entering those in Corinth who are willing to receive it, he is entering them INTO co-suffering with Christ as the MEANS of attaining the Gifts of the Spirit and Power of God...

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is: "Repent and be baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

That's not the gospel. That's a command, not news.

This is the crux of the problem, my friend. This is what gets all of your thinking wrong. Get the gospel wrong, and you are no longer talking about Christianity, but some distortion of it, sect or cult.

 

[sunlover1]

Sunlover1, I must admit to chuckling at your post. I apologize to you for this, but the first thing I notice is that ou misspell the name "Schofield." 2nd, you completely misread Schofields quote. I do not know why I find that funny. I have a strange sense of humor. The 3ird thing I found funny was that you assume that Schofield is an authority with thatbrian, or myself? I honestly and sincerely apologize of my bad sense of humor.

I copied and pasted it, <click to see original.
I don't know why you find it funny either.

Here is what Schofield is actually saying.... Schofield is not saying that the natural man is a Christian. Not at all. Read your own quote. Schofield is seeing three kinds of people...
1--- The Natural Man --- "the spiritual context of scripture is completely hidden from him...unrenewed through the new birth (speaks of what we have been calling the unregenerate).
2--- The Carnal Man --- "able to understand only the simplest truths "milk" 1 Cor 3:2"
3--- The Spiritual man --- Spirit filled man, walking in the Spirit.

So then, your quote of Schofield id not saying that the natural man is a Christian, but actually agrees with thatbrian, that the natural man is an unbeliever.

I am also trying to restrain myself in another way. I would not agree with Schofield on the issue of the nature of a "Carnal" man? I do not wish to discuss that here, it would be a big dog trail.

You're right, i should have seen that he was referring to CARNAL Christians in the last paragraph.
I must have skimmed! :/
Renewed man can be UNrenewed in His mind, since his "mind' doesn't get saved.
The mind is where the battle lies. So as he says, and i agree, that we can be learned
gentle, eloquent etc.. but the spiritual content be hidden as he's not been exercising
his faith/word muscles and so is UNskilled in handling the Word.
We're all at different levels and stages in both handling of the word and in our walks.
Thus:
...sarkikos, "carnal," "fleshly," i.e. the renewed man who, walking "after the flesh," remains a babe in Christ 1Cor 3:1-4. The natural man may be learned, gentle, eloquent, fascinating, but the spiritual content of Scripture is absolutely hidden from him; and the fleshly, or carnal, Christian is able to comprehend only its simplest truths, "milk" 1Cor 3:2.

 

[sunlover1]

That's not the gospel. That's a command, not news.

This is the crux of the problem, my friend. This is what gets all of your thinking wrong. Get the gospel wrong, and you are no longer talking about Christianity, but some distortion of it, sect or cult.

It's actually a response TO the Good News.
Goes hand in hand With, but is not "the"

We should all be able to say what it is indeed.
but i bet we all have differing ideas ..?
What do you say it is? (gospel, that is)

 

[Arsenios]

That's not the gospel.
That's a command,
not news.

It is BOTH, or are you going to start re-writing Scripture too?

This is the crux of the problem, my friend.

Of course it is...

This is what gets all of your thinking wrong. Get the gospel wrong, and you are no longer talking about Christianity, but some distortion of it, sect or cult.

Then you have just confessed to being in a sect or a cult...

A voice of one calling in the wilderness:
Matt 3:2
"Be ye repenting: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Calls forth John the Baptizer of Christ, the greatest of the Prophets...

Two messages in the Gospel at this point:
The Good News: The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, here and now...
The other Good News: There is something you can DO about it...
eg - You can be repenting and keep on repenting...

BECAUSE: Matt 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the kingdom of heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.

Christ's very own words...
To repent is a forceful action, you see...

And He states elsewhere, lest there be any question:
If anyone is willing after Me to be following
Let him first deny himself.
Then take up his own cross...
And be following Me...

And after John is silenced by the sword of Herod...
Christ Himself took up the same Good News:

Mat_4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

It is a matter of life and death...

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

He repeats this two vss later. 13:5

His disciples preached it in Mark 6:12

Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

And after John was imprisoned, Mark records:

Mar 1:14-15
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee,
preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God,
And saying,
The time is fulfilled,
and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, and believe the Gospel.

The Gospel is about the Kingdom of God - It is not about the Cross of Christ - The Cross of Christ is ABOUT the Kingdom of God...

And after the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior, the Apostle Peter is recorded in Acts saying: Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them,
Repent, and be baptized every one of you
in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins,
and
ye shall receive the Gift
of the Holy Spirit.

Do YOU believe what Holy Scripture is saying to us here?

The Good News is the ARRIVAL and PRESENCE of the Kingdom of God on earth...
Christ Crucified, Buried and Resurrected IS that Kingdom...
And Paul in Corinth is LIVING his cross...

The Resurrected Christ Himself said that He would show him how much he would suffer for His Name's sake, remember? Speaking to Ananias?

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It's actually a response TO the Good News.
Goes hand in hand With, but is not "the"

We should all be able to say what it is indeed.
but i bet we all have differing ideas ..?
What do you say it is? (gospel, that is)

The gospel and our response to it are two different things. The law is command. The gospel is news. This easy to determine by definition, but countless people call law gospel, and I would go so far as to say that it the biggest problem in the church today. There should be no various ideas of what the gospel is. That's not a matter of opinion, and Paul clearly stated that if you get it wrong, in the wrong order, as my friend has, then you have no gospel at all. It's that important.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:8)

 

[sunlover1]

The gospel and our response to it are two different things. The law is command. The gospel is news. This easy to determine by definition, but countless people call law gospel, and I would go so far as to say that it the biggest problem in the church today. There should be no various ideas of what the gospel is. That's not a matter of opinion, and Paul clearly stated that if you get it wrong, in the wrong order, as my friend has, then you have no gospel at all. It's that important.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:8)

And i did say exactly what you just said only very succinctly.
I said it's not "the news" but a 'response TO" the news.

What exactly is this "news".. that's what I am asking you... since it's 'that important"
And it is!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And i did say exactly what you just said only very succinctly.
I said it's not "the news" but a 'response TO" the news.

What exactly is this "news".. that's what I am asking you... since it's 'that important"
And it is!

Yes. I agree. You did. I didn't mean to imply anything different.

 

[Arsenios]

Strange -
I argue directly from Scripture, and I only get personal opinions in reply...
And this from the Sola's...

REPENT is the command engendered by the GOOD NEWS which is that:

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND!

In all the Gospels, Christ told parable after parable about the Kingdom of Heaven...

The Gospel is about the presence on earth of the Kingdom of Heaven...

He had never before incarnated on earth, this Kingdom of Heaven, Christ...

Now His incarnate Body, the Church, is everywhere - even in Antartica...

A lovely, if doubtlessly prefab'd, structure...

"He who has suffered has stopped sinning..."

Remember that quote?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Yes. I agree. You did. I didn't mean to imply anything different.

She asked you what YOU understand the Good News to be...
Since you apparently do NOT regard the Presence...
Of the Kingdom of Heaven upon this very earth...
Which in the entire history of the Kosmos...
Had NEVER been the case for mankind..

I say, you apparently do NOT regard this NEWS
As the Good News of Christ on earth...

Or do you??

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

What is your ALTERNATE OPINION of the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

What is your ALTERNATE OPINION of the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Arsenios

There is only one gospel. There are no alternates. Having said that, I don't know many people who name themselves as Christians who know what the gospel is.

I will never sway you from your Greek Orthodox soteriology. It's a fools errand, which is why I didn't reply.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

 

[Arsenios]

There is only one gospel. There are no alternates. Having said that, I don't know many people who name themselves as Christians who know what the gospel is.

I will never sway you from your Greek Orthodox soteriology. It's a fools errand, which is why I didn't reply.

Is THAT why you did not reply to Sunlover1's asking of the identical question too?
I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
I have shown to you what that Gospel IS, using the very Scriptura which you claim to embrace Sola, and laid out what it means and how it inter-relates, and I have shown it to be the understanding of Christ's Church for 2000 years... And suddenly you are no longer interested is Sola Scriptura because you do not think I will be persuaded somehow???

What about your proof-text that ALL Scripture us useful for reproof? You have been re-proofed... And you become silent, yet cling to your opinion, and won't even offer it... I tell you that the Crucifixion of our Lord is for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, and you have no Scriptural rebuttal? Do you not know that the reason for your silence is because what I am saying is true?

Gotta do the morning Services...

God Bless You, my Brother...

Do you like my new Avatar?

Arsenios

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Is THAT why you did not reply to Sunlover1's asking of the identical question too?
I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
I have shown to you what that Gospel IS, using the very Scriptura which you claim to embrace Sola, and laid out what it means and how it inter-relates, and I have shown it to be the understanding of Christ's Church for 2000 years... And suddenly you are no longer interested is Sola Scriptura because you do not think I will be persuaded somehow???

What about your proof-text that ALL Scripture us useful for reproof? You have been re-proofed... And you become silent, yet cling to your opinion, and won't even offer it... I tell you that the Crucifixion of our Lord is for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, and you have no Scriptural rebuttal? Do you not know that the reason for your silence is because what I am saying is true?

Gotta do the morning Services...

God Bless You, my Brother...

Do you like my new Avatar?

Arsenios

If I know that my rebuttal will fall of deaf ears and cause me to type thousands of words for nothing, why is it not OK for me to refrain from reply? God gave me a brain. I try to use it. Half a century of life has given me a little wisdom, as well.

Tell you what. If I hear a voice telling me to correct your thinking on the gospel, I'll reply.

New Avatar? If you want to impress me, you will need to step it up a notch, like this guy:

 

[Arsenios]

If I know that my rebuttal will fall of deaf ears and cause me to type thousands of words for nothing, why is it not OK for me to refrain from reply? God gave me a brain. I try to use it. Half a century of life has given me a little wisdom, as well.

Well, two points:

1 - Sunlover1 is a S/S'er as you are, and asked the same question, and your reply to me does not apply...

2 - The Gospel of Christ does not take thousands of words to state, which is all that was asked...

Tell you what. If I hear a voice telling me to correct your thinking on the gospel, I'll reply.

Nobody asked for correction. We just want to know what YOU understand to be the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

New Avatar? If you want to impress me, you will need to step it up a notch, like this guy:

Ol' Balls and Strikes Charlie???

Notice the difference in the eyes...

Joy vs pretense...

Remember my first avatar? The Siberian winter Baptism through the ice and into the water beneath of Lake Valaam? I get hypothermic looking at that pic...

The Orthodox Faith is a keen exercise in paradox...

The Mystery of the Faith, as Paul calls it...

Arsenios

 

[Don Maurer]

For those who have ears to hear, thatbrian posts the gospel on every single post, just read what he says at the bottom.