Resurrection Sabbath: The Evidence

[Daniel Gregg]

I thought this mark up was a good way to illustrate the difference between paying attention to what Scripture actually says vs. what traditions and translators try to make it say. Please note that the rule is not one I made up. It is the ideal all translators are supposed to follow and most believe they should follow. But tradition imposes and the rule is hypocritically dismissed. For the few brave souls willing to base their worship of the Almighty on truth instead of tradition.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Ahh...so you are saying you are Daniel Gregg. Good to know.
What is your background in the Hebrew language. How did you learn it?

Well take this over here Hank, since the object is for new people to see the truth up and front, and not buried under someone else's thread. As you will see in the post above, it is demonstrated prima facie that the translators violated their own rules. Questions of authority or institutional learning put as objections to actual demonstration of truth are logical fallacies.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

The Greek says Sabbaths, in the plural form. The KJV, translates it as 'week' in the singular, which should be plural 'weeks'.
It was the first of the Sabbaths or weeks of the counting of the omer. The woman rested, as is commanded, on the 7th day Shabbot. On the first day of the weeks of the counting of the omer they went to the tomb.

The Sabbath they rested on was the Annual Sabbath. You appear to think it was the weekly Sabbath. If so it contradicts Matthew 12:40 and Luke 23:54-24:1:

 

[daq]

The Shabbat in which they rested was plural because it contained a Shabbat in its Shabbat, (as it is written, as mentioned in the other thread). If you had given any thought to what was said there you might truly begin to understand not only these things but also what is meant by σαββατω δευτεροπρωτω. Oh well, to each his own I suppose. Have a nice thread.
.
.

 

[Hank77]

Well take this over here Hank, since the object is for new people to see the truth up and front, and not buried under someone else's thread. As you will see in the post above, it is demonstrated prima facie that the translators violated their own rules. Questions of authority or institutional learning put as objections to actual demonstration of truth are logical fallacies.

I'm not going to start all other in a separate thread.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

I'm not going to start all other in a separate thread.

Suit yourself. This thread's title is better suited to what where actually talking about. Here is a general overview for anyone else:

 

[Daniel Gregg]

If you had given any thought to what was said there you might truly begin to understand not only these things but also what is meant by σαββατω δευτεροπρωτω.

It is fairly evident that I've thought about this more than you, and have been blessed with excellent answers for the effort. The "second first Sabbath" (Luke 6:1) is simply another way of talking about the first Sabbath after Passover. This is because the first day of the feast is also a Sabbath, and it is the first Sabbath of the feast (Lev. 23:7, 11, 15), but the first of seven Sabbaths to Shavuot is counted after this first Sabbath, so it too is call the first of the Sabbaths. To tell the difference Luke puts "second first Sabbath." On on this Sabbath they are eating the new grain. So Luke has implicitly refuted the Karaite doctrine right there.

 

[pat34lee]

Suit yourself. This thread's title is better suited to what where actually talking about.

That has all the right data, except the three days
doesn't start at the trial, but at the burial. It ends
just before sunset at the end of the seventh day.

 

[visionary]

Which Sabbath is the start of the seven Sabbath count?

1.) The First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread
2.) The weekly Sabbath that occurs seven times during the counting of the Omer
3.) The First Fruits/Wave Sheaf

 

[Daniel Gregg]

It ends
just before sunset at the end of the seventh day

This view produces a contradiction with Luke 24:21:

Also, it is not biblical to count three days excluding Wed.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

2.) The weekly Sabbath that occurs seven times during the counting of the Omer

 

[Daniel Gregg]

My own opinion is that it was at least three 24 hr days or Mark wouldn't have said, "after three days rise again" (Mark 8:31).

Unnecessary for 72 hours acc. to mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34, as shown here:

 

[Daniel Gregg]

According to Daniel Gregg (and other researchers) the timeline for 24 hr Hebrew day was originally thought to be from 6 am to 6 am. Daniel Gregg believes this timeline was still in effect at the time of Yeshua with only the weekly Sabbath beginning on the evening (6 pm) of the 6th day (Friday).

Not only the weekly Sabbath. Yom Tov Sabbaths also. You really should edit your post to correct that.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Yeshua arose ... on the first day of our Sunday

Nope. Sabbath at dawn according to Scripture, as this chart explains.

 

[pat34lee]

Nope. Sabbath at dawn according to Scripture, as this chart explains.

You know that there were two Sabbaths on the crucifixion week?

 

[AbbaLove]

Not only the weekly Sabbath. Yom Tov Sabbaths also. You really should edit your post to correct that.

It was corrected at 5:00 am in the last post in the other thread. See the portion that is in red. This is that post that i've copied and pasted here with a few additions shown in green ...

Aviv 14 wasn't a Sabbath ... "When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour." If in fact Aviv 14 began at 6 am that would mean that the preparaton for the Last Supper, Yeshua's arrest and His examination took place during the later half of Aviv 13 (say 3 pm to 6 am), with the continued questioning, mock trial, scourging and crucifixion taking place during the first half of Aviv 14 (6 am to 3 pm). Does my timeline scenario on the other thread differ enough so as to significantly contradict your 6 am to 6 am Jewish day timeline of events when it comes to "on the third day," "after three days," "three days and three nights" and "And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb," (John 20:1 YLT). I assume my timeline is fair to middling as no scribe, attorney or lawyer has yet "strenuously objected" (from A Few Good Men)

According to your timeline a Jewish day is from sunrise to sunrise, exception being a 36 hr Sabbath beginning during the
last 12 hrs of the previous day at sundown. So, the High Sabbath on Aviv 15 (like with the weekly 7th Day Sabbath) actually begins 12 hrs earlier during the latter half of Aviv 14, from 6 pm to 6 am. That's why Yeshua had to be in the tomb before sundown on Aviv 14, which initiated the High Sabbath on the 1st Day of Unlleavened Bread. According to Daniel Gregg's timeline (and that of other researchers) the implication is every Sabbath begins at the beginnng of the last 12 hrs of darkness (6pm to 6 am) of the preceeding day followed then by the Jewish daily timeline of 6 am to 6 am.

the dawnng of the sun rising is also the dawning of the Son Rising
( toward the end of the Jewish Sabbath before sunrise and nearly 6 hrs into our western Sunday before sunrise )
​

Matthew 28:1 YLT (Jewish 7th Day timeline)
And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,
Matthew 28:1 NAS (taking into account the timeline of our Saturday and Sunday (12 am to 12 am)
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
Matthew 28:1 GNV (1599 Geneva Bible)
Now in (a)the (b)end of the Sabbath, when the first day of the week (c)began to dawn, Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, came to see the sepulcher. (The 1st Day of the Jewish Week doesn't [officially] begin until sunrise. Like sunset to the first visible stars there is also as much as 45 minutes of elapsed time between early dawn while it is still dark and the actual sunrise.)

GNV Footnotes:

• (a) Christ having put death to flight in the sepulcher, riseth by his own power, as straightway the Angel witnessed.
• (b) At the going out of the Sabbath, that is, about daybreak after the Roman’s count, which reckon the natural day, from the sun rising to the next sun rising: *and not as the Hebrews, which count from evening to evening (?).
• (c) When the morning after the first day after the Sabbath began to dawn: and that first day is the same, which we now call Sunday or the Lord’s day.

When did the counting of the Roman day (running from sun rising to the next sun rising) get changed to our modern western day from 12 am of midnight to the next 12 am of midnight? Daniel you sound like all Messianics should believe a Jewish Day (at the time of Yeshua) was still in effect from 6 am to 6 am. When do you think Rabbinic Judaism (years after 70 AD) changed every Jewish Day from beginning at sunrise to beginning at sundown?

Is it not possible that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (as well as the early Church translators) took into account both the Jewish calendar and the Roman calendar? That's possibly why there is some confusion as to the timeline of the various recording of the events surrounding the Passover, Unleavened Bread, Sabbaths, First Fruits and Yeshua’s Resurrection to be read by both Messianic Jewish Believers and Greek (non-Jewish) Believers/Followers of Yeshua, the perfect Lamb of God.

Any way hopefully most Messianics are satisfied that we agree Yeshua arose both toward the end of the weekly Sabbath (6 am to 6 am) just at the early dawning before sunrise AND on the first day of our Sunday almost 6 hours into our western Sunday (12 am to 6 am) at the early dawning before the sunrise.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

You know that there were two Sabbaths on the crucifixion week?

 

[Daniel Gregg]

.....

Do you have a chart of what you believe was the timing of the crucifixion and resurrection? It would be so much easier to reply if you did.

 

[AbbaLove]

Do you have a chart of what you believe was the timing of the crucifixion and resurrection? It would be so much easier to reply if you did.

(1) Correct me if wrong, but believe i'm the only one so far that agrees with you that at the time of Yeshua a Jewish day was from sunrise to the next sunrise (say 6 am to 6 am for the sake of this discussion), except for Sabbaths.
(2) It's also possible (according to Matt. 28:1 footnotes in the 1599 Geneva Bible) that the Roman day was also from sunrise to the next sunrise at the time of Yeshua.
(3) Also, wouldn't argue with you that every [true] Messianic realize that the scirpture accounts of Peasch, Unleavened Bread, Sabbaths, First Fruits and Yeshua's Resurrection makes more sense (it all fits) when considering that the weekly 24 hr Jewish day during the time of Yeshua was from sunrise to sunrise.
(4) Also, that Yeshua arose before sunrise toward the end of the 7th Day Sabbath while there were still at least a few stars visible just with the approaching dawn.

​

So ... no need for either of us to perceive the other as an Adversary

Actually, it's easier for me to layout and visualize the timeline of events (as shown below) than on a chart. The timeline is from Aviv 14 to Aviv 18 (1st Day) with a Jewish Day being from sunrise to sunrise ... with the exception being the 7th Day Sabbath and Feast Day Sabbaths that may fall on the 1st Day through the 6th Day (e.g. Aviv 15). Where we may disagree is counting the 3-4 hrs of daylight remaining after Yeshua's death as one of the "days" that Yeshua refers to in Jonah 1:17 "And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." My first of three days comes on Aviv 15, the High Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.

Jewish 4th Day (sunrise to sunrise)
6 am to 6 am = last 18 hrs of our contemporary Wednesday (6 am to 12 noon to 12 midnight)
12 midnight to 6 am = first 6 hrs of our contemporary Thursday
6 am to 6 pm = 12 hrs (3-4 hrs of daylight remained after Yeshua’s death)
6 pm to 6 am = 12 hrs nighttime ~ 1st Hebrew Night
(beginning of the weekly Sabbath on Friday evening)
Aviv 14 = Preparation Day

Jewish 5th Day (sunrise to sunrise)
6 am to 6 am = last 18 hrs of today's western Thursday (6 am to 12 noon to 12 midnight)
12 midnight to 6 am = first 6 hrs of today's western Friday
6 am to 6 pm = 12 hrs daytime ~ 1st Hebrew Day
6 pm to 6 am = 12 hrs nighttime ~ 2nd Hebrew Night
(beginning of the weekly Sabbath on Friday evening)
Aviv 15 = 1st Day of Unleavened Bread

Jewish 6th Day (sunrise to sunrise)
6 am to 6 am = last 18 hrs of today's western Friday (6 am to 12 noon to 12 midnight)
(6 pm to 6 am was the beginning of the weekly Sabbath on the 6th day)
12 midnight to 6 am = first 6 hrs of today's western Saturday
6 am to 6 pm = 12 hrs daytime ~ 2nd Hebrew Day
6 pm to 6 am = 12 hrs nighttime ~ 3rd Hebrew Night
(beginning of the weekly Sabbath on Friday evening)
Aviv 16 = 2nd Day of Unleavened Bread

Jewish 7th Day (sunrise to sunrise)
6 am to 6 am = last 18 hrs of today's western Saturday (6 am to 12 noon to 12 midnight)
12 midnight to 6 am = first 6 hrs of today's western Sunday
6 am to 6 pm = 12 hrs daytime ~ 3rd Hebrew Day
(Yeshua appeared to His Disciples during the daytime)
6 pm to 6 am = 12 hrs nighttime
Aviv 17 = 3nd Day of Unleavened Bread
Any additional hours beyond two 24 hr days is considered “on the third day”
“after three days” when taking into account the 3-4 hrs of remaining daylight on Aviv 14

Jewish 1st day (sunrise to sunrise)
6 am to 6 am = last 18 hrs of today's western Sunday (6 am to 12 noon to 12 midnight)
12 midnight to 6 am = first 6 hrs of today's western Monday

I get the sense that you may prefer to critique my above timeline than take time to answer my previous questions (post #16), so no problem. I welcome your constructive criticism

(1) Would be interested in your critique of the purpose of a Jewish Sabbath actually beginning during the last 12 hours of the 6th Day from sunset to the dawn just before sunrise (6 pm to 5:59 am), and the actual beginning of the 24 hr 7th Day Sabbath.
(2) Do you think it's possible that originally the first weekly Sabbaths were from surise to sunrise of the 7th Day ... with the previous 12 hours from sunset to sunrise (the latter half of the preceeding day) gradually becoming more like a half Day Of Preparation ... reading the Torah, praying and singing late into the evening knowing that the acrtual 7th Day is a Day of Rest to mediate on God's Goodness, His Promises, David's Psalms and Solomon's Proverbs while keeping a positive outlook of Thankfulness for God's Blessings.
(3) Kind of like the Day Of Preparation before Pesach, which some observe on Aviv 13; while others may consider the Day Of Preparation to be on Aviv 14. Afterall, the resulting event for a "Messianic" is the Resurrection of the Lamb of God.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

(1) Correct me if wrong