Resurrection Sabbath: The Evidence

[AbbaLove]

Did a Roman 24 hr accounting of time, around 34 AD, proceed from sunrise to sunrise? If Roman daily reckoning was different during the crucifixion of Yeshua then the following chart times would need to be adjusted accordingly.

These two charts show the timeline overlap of the two Sabbaths with Roman days (sunrise to sunrise) running concurrent with the Jewish Days (sunrise to sunrise). The writers of the 1599 Geneva Bible (footnotes) believed the Roman Day was from sunrise to sunrise, but it is uncertain whether or not they only considered the Jewish Sabbaths to begin at sunset.

.. 3rd Day ~ Tuesday ... 4th Day ~ Wednesday . 5th Day ~ Thursday
| daylight | nighttime_|__daylight__|_nighttime_|__daylight__|_nighttime_|
.......... |..LS..|trial ~ crucifixion|xxx|..1st of two Sabbaths (High Sabbath)..|
the 5th Day Thursday Aviv 15 is the Beginning of the Feast Of Unleavened Bread

...... 6th Day ~ Friday ......... 7th Day ~ Saturday ..... 1st Day ~ Sunday
|__daylight__|_nighttime_|__daylight__|_nighttime_|__daylight__|_nighttime_|
|.Omer Count|..........36 hour Weekly Sabbath..........|
the Weekly Sabbath is 36 hrs while the actual 7th Day ~ Saturday is still 24 hrs

Similar to your timeline of events from Aviv 13 ... through ... Aviv 18 in 34 AD/CE

Seems to be some disagreement whether the First Fruits Wave Offering occurs on
the 6th Day, 7th Day or 1st Day. Some “Messianics” believe FF Wave was 1st Day
The Torah Creation Calendar agrees with you that FF Offering was on the 6th Day
( see Torah Calendar: http://www.torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y34M1 )

Should other MJs disagree with some of your timeline opinions (as some have so
expressed on this thread and the other thread) please don’t talk down to them or
write them off as if your charts are infallible and their opinions are of lessor value.

​

. . . . . . . Honey is Sweeter than Vinegar . . . . . . ​

Traditional Judaism has many errors. One of these as pointed out by Eben Ezra and Jacob Milgrom (JPS Torah Commentary) is the teaching that a day begins at sunset. This view is not according to the Messianic Faith. Only Sabbaths begin at sunset. The rest of days begin at dawn ...

I have tried to research how/why Mr. Gregg might have this scholarship and cannot find anything out about him, not even on his own site.

What do you know about Daniel Gregg's background?

Others as well as myself went around with Daniel a couple years ago on another Jewish CF forum about the same topic and his timeline of these same events supported with several of his charts. He comes across as somewhat of an expert breaking through years of accumulated misinformation that is accepted now as fact. Daniel is doing his own thing which is not necessarily a negative and gets us all thinking how solid is the ground where we stand. He's very knowledgeable as well as very opinionated.

Here is Daniel's reply to a post made by Visionary who is genuinely interested in Daniel's research. She asked what she considered a reasonable question which in effect came across to Daniel as confrontational by questioning Daniel's reasoning with respect to his detailed charts. Not the best way to win friends and have a positive influence on other Messianics.

The difference between a heckler who exhausts the teacher with questions and a reasonable person is that the reasonable person agrees with reasonable points made as the discussion progresses before raising points he or she perceives as difficult. You have not actually agreed that anything I posted is reasonable.

 

[Hank77]

Did a Roman 24 hr accounting of time, around 34 AD, proceed from sunrise to sunrise? If Roman daily reckoning was different during the crucifixion of Yeshua then the following chart times would need to be adjusted accordingly.

These two charts show the timeline overlap of the two Sabbaths with Roman days (sunrise to sunrise) running concurrent with the Jewish Days (sunrise to sunrise). The writers of the 1599 Geneva Bible (footnotes) believed the Roman Day was from sunrise to sunrise, but it is uncertain whether or not they only considered the Jewish Sabbaths to begin at sunset.

.. 3rd Day ~ Tuesday ... 4th Day ~ Wednesday . 5th Day ~ Thursday
| daylight | nighttime_|__daylight__|_nighttime_|__daylight__|_nighttime_|
.......... |..LS..|trial ~ crucifixion|xxx|..1st of two Sabbaths (High Sabbath)..|
the 5th Day Thursday Aviv 15 is the Beginning of the Feast Of Unleavened Bread

...... 6th Day ~ Friday ......... 7th Day ~ Saturday ..... 1st Day ~ Sunday
|__daylight__|_nighttime_|__daylight__|_nighttime_|__daylight__|_nighttime_|
|.Omer Count|..........36 hour Weekly Sabbath..........|
the Weekly Sabbath is 36 hrs while the actual 7th Day ~ Saturday is still 24 hrs

Similar to your timeline of events from Aviv 13 ... through ... Aviv 18 in 34 AD/CE

Seems to be some disagreement whether the First Fruits Wave Offering occurs on
the 6th Day, 7th Day or 1st Day. Some “Messianics” believe FF Wave was 1st Day
The Torah Creation Calendar agrees with you that FF Offering was on the 6th Day
( see Torah Calendar: http://www.torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y34M1 )

Should other MJs disagree with some of your timeline opinions (as some have so
expressed on this thread and the other thread) please don’t talk down to them or
write them off as if your charts are infallible and their opinions are of lessor value.

​

. . . . . . . Honey is Sweeter than Vinegar . . . . . . ​

Others as well as myself went around with Daniel a couple years ago on another Jewish CF forum about the same topic and his timeline of these same events supported with several of his charts. He comes across as somewhat of an expert breaking through years of accumulated misinformation that is accepted now as fact. Daniel is doing his own thing which is not necessarily a negative and gets us all thinking how solid is the ground where we stand. He's very knowledgeable as well as very opinionated.

Here is Daniel's reply to a post made by Visionary who is genuinely interested in Daniel's research. She asked what she considered a reasonable question which in effect came across to Daniel as confrontational by questioning Daniel's reasoning with respect to his detailed charts. Not the best way to win friends and have a positive influence on other Messianics.

Thanks for the Torah calendar, I will study that.

 

[pat34lee]

It doesn't matter for this discussion whether a normal day
begins in the morning or evening (or noon or midnight). He
was in the ground for three days and three nights. That
could begin at any moment, and would end 72 hours later.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

The Torah Creation Calendar agrees with you that FF Offering was on the 6th Day

More to the point in AD 34. What agrees with me on Torah Calendar about this subject originated with yours truly.

http://www.torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y-34M1

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Should other MJs disagree with some of your timeline opinions (as some have so
expressed on this thread and the other thread) please don’t talk down to them or
write them off as if your charts are infallible and their opinions are of lessor value.

Invariably my opponents try to change the subject to other criticisms, often enough untrue, to be ignored as a matter of policy.

 

[visionary]

Here is Daniel's reply to a post made by Visionary who is genuinely interested in Daniel's research. She asked what she considered a reasonable question which in effect came across to Daniel as confrontational by questioning Daniel's reasoning with respect to his detailed charts. Not the best way to win friends and have a positive influence on other Messianics.

Yeah... That post didn't go over very well. Not my intent. I am glad to know not all thought I was out of line or confrontational because that has never been my approach. I leave people to believe what they will. But I want to learn their "logic" so that I can better understand if this is well laid out thought process, or just a "fad"... I like to see a sure foundation on the concepts, the approaches, and the evidence. Hence the questions, which I thought were reasonable. My apologies to Daniel.

 

[AbbaLove]

Thanks for the Torah calendar, I will study that.

As good as the Torah Creation Calendar is it's not perfect, but then what is perfect compared to our Lord and Saviour.

A couple years ago the TCC claimed/proposed (partially based on NASA calculations) that the actual Hebrew year was 5999 and soon to become 6000, as opposed to the then accepted Jewish calendar year of 5774/5775. Also, there are a number of knowledgeable Messianic Christians coming around to consider the real possibility that the Aviv/Nisan 14 crucifixion actually occurred on Thursday. With that timeline First Fruits occurred on the 7th Day Sabbath. Then there are a few other Messianics and many Christians that believe First Fruits occurred on the 1st Day of the Week.

If Daniel Gregg and Alex Tennant (The Messianic Feast: Moving Beyond the Ritual) ever got into a lengthy debate on Aviv/Nisan 14 occurring on Wednesday (DG) versus Aviv/Nisan 14 occurring on Thursday (AT) such a staunch debate would possibly end in a "draw" or "stalemate" (Boris Spassky vs Bobby Fischer) with each having learned more about how to "best" present themselves in hopes of having a positive influence on their counterpart and other interested observers.

On a second related note i caught the second part of Ken Burns latest documentary "Jackie Robinson" last night. This is possibly Burn's most timely and memorable production yet. I was 19 when Abraham Lincoln's Republican Party first remodelled itself by conservative Barry Goldwater into what became known as the "Whiteman's Party" leading for the first time (and ever since) to the Democratic Party becoming known as the party of under priviledged minorities. Men like Malcom X and the Black Panthers became the first change agents for what had been complaceny into what would become the "Black Militant Movement." Jackie Robinson's entire life exemplified this dramatic change-over from one of a submissive "Uncle Tom" of non-violent complaceny (Martin Luther King) to one of enuf is enuf (e.g. Watts Riot in Los Angeles). Jackie Robinson was the first Black athlete to break the racist color barrier of the 60s, and with his God-given athletic talent he did it with as much class as anyon could muster at that time.

Jackie Robinson got heckled and persecuted during the first couple years with the Brooklyn Dodgers, but never retaliated in kind or ever gave up.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Also, there are a number of knowledgeable Messianic Christians coming around to consider the real possibility that the Aviv/Nisan 14 crucifixion actually occurred on Thursday.

This view was considered by many before the Messianic Movement and is still held to by them, e.g. Floyd Nolen Jones.

Here is why it isn't according to Scripture:

A second reason:

 

[AbbaLove]

This view was considered by many before the Messianic Movement and is still held to by them, e.g. Floyd Nolen Jones.

Here is why it isn't according to Scripture:

A second reason:

There is much that You and Alex Tennant could benefit from in that you both agree on some; while disagreeing on the timeline of other interpretations. You may want to checkout this extensive thread if you haven't already ... http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-true-messianic-breaking-of-bread.7899024/

Both You and Alex could benefit from each others research. Both have Yeshua arising on the 7th day of the week. However, You might agree that most Messianics would be more receptive to AT's research that supports First Fruits taking place on the 7th Day of the Week. Some Messianic Christians believe the First Fruits took place on the 1st Day of the Weel ... as opposed to First Fruits occurring on the 6th Day of the Week (Torah Creation Calendar).

You may want to start a "First Fruits" thread along with a poll to see what day seems to get the most votes in this MJ forum for the First Fruits Wave Offering taking place during the Passover Feast of Unleavened Bread when Yeshua was crucified.

A. The 6th Day Aviv/Nisan 16
B. The 7th Day Aviv/Nisan 17
C. The 1st Day Aviv/Nisan 18​

Alex Tennant's insightful 500 page book is nothing to scoff at, but like your research it hasn't been all that well received by both Christians and Messianic Jews ... http://themessianicfeast.com/

As for me i'm continuing onward with my previously planned vacation from this Messianic forum for the next several weeks. So, don't take my absent as having anything to do with your replies ... actually the contrary. My previously planned absent from posting was already moving into its 4th week. Then couldn't resist checking out what new threads were up and got sucked back into the loop. Hopefully, i'm more disciplined should i decide to checkout what new threads are up again before my return in August.

 

[mercy1061]

More to the point in AD 34. What agrees with me on Torah Calendar about this subject originated with yours truly.

http://www.torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?YM=Y-34M1

When did Yeshua rise from the grave according to the scriptures?

 

[mercy1061]

There is much that You and Alex Tennant could benefit from in that you both agree on some; while disagreeing on the timeline of other interpretations. You may want to checkout this extensive thread if you haven't already ... http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-true-messianic-breaking-of-bread.7899024/

Both You and Alex could benefit from each others research. Both have Yeshua arising on the 7th day of the week. However, You might agree that most Messianics would be more receptive to AT's research that supports First Fruits taking place on the 7th Day of the Week. Some Messianic Christians believe the First Fruits took place on the 1st Day of the Weel ... as opposed to First Fruits occurring on the 6th Day of the Week (Torah Creation Calendar).

You may want to start a "First Fruits" thread along with a poll to see what day seems to get the most votes in this MJ forum for the First Fruits Wave Offering taking place during the Passover Feast of Unleavened Bread when Yeshua was crucified.

A. The 6th Day Aviv/Nisan 16
B. The 7th Day Aviv/Nisan 17
C. The 1st Day Aviv/Nisan 18​

Alex Tennant's insightful 500 page book is nothing to scoff at, but like your research it hasn't been all that well received by both Christians and Messianic Jews ... http://themessianicfeast.com/

As for me i'm continuing onward with my previously planned vacation from this Messianic forum for the next several weeks. So, don't take my absent as having anything to do with your replies ... actually the contrary. My previously planned absent from posting was already moving into its 4th week. Then couldn't resist checking out what new threads were up and got sucked back into the loop. Hopefully, i'm more disciplined should i decide to checkout what new threads are up again before my return in August.

Does Yeshua's time in the grave compare/contrast to Jonah's time in the belly of the fish? So let us compare and contrast the Messiah's rest in the grave with Jonah's rest and resurrection from the belly of the fish before he preached to the city of Nineveh?

Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

When did Yeshua rise from the grave according to the scriptures?

I like simple questions. It was just before dawn on the Sabbath. This chart shows the timeline:

This second chart answers the question of the third day.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Does Yeshua's time in the grave compare/contrast to Jonah's time in the belly of the fish?

It does. This chart lines up the correspondences:

 

[mercy1061]

I like simple questions. It was just before dawn on the Sabbath. This chart shows the timeline:

This second chart answers the question of the third day.

We know the Torah requires at least two witnesses to establish a matter. Which day of the week ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES did Yeshua rise from the grave? Which day of the week did Jonah enter the belly of the fish?

 

[mercy1061]

It does. This chart lines up the correspondences:

Are there 12 hours in a day? John 11:9 Which day of the week is the Sabbath day? Did not Israel gather a double portion of manna on the sixth day to prepare for the Sabbath day while they walked by faith in the wilderness?

 

[pat34lee]

They keep counting the trial as part of his time under
the earth, which throws everything off by a day. Jonah
didn't get a day off during his 3 days and 3 nights. The
second and third trials, scourging and crucifixion were
all above ground in the daytime. The time has to begin
when he was buried.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Here is, to my knowledge, the original version of the Sabbath resurrection timeline.

I believe it is the oldest and best version, though I guess they are all similar:

source

 

[visionary]

I wish this came a little larger and clearer because of the details.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

I believe it is the oldest and best version, though I guess they are all similar:

Bryan Huie did that site. He learned his chronological views from yours truly. Sadly Bryan turned against the deity of Messiah.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

It is fairly evident that I've thought about this more than you, and have been blessed with excellent answers for the effort. The "second first Sabbath" (Luke 6:1) is simply another way of talking about the first Sabbath after Passover. This is because the first day of the feast is also a Sabbath, and it is the first Sabbath of the feast (Lev. 23:7, 11, 15), but the first of seven Sabbaths to Shavuot is counted after this first Sabbath, so it too is call the first of the Sabbaths. To tell the difference Luke puts "second first Sabbath." On on this Sabbath they are eating the new grain. So Luke has implicitly refuted the Karaite doctrine right there.

It is fairly evident that you have not thought about this more than you think. The meaning of the "second first" Sabbath in Luke 6:1 is uncertain. Most honest scholars are not sure what this hapax means. It is not found in some earlier manuscripts and some scholars have differing theories on what it means. It is unique, only mentioned here in Luke 6:1, and found nowhere else in the Koine Greek world. You don't offer a theory or an opinion, you dogmatically assert that this term is used for simply another way of talking about the first Sabbath after Passover. How do you know this? What study did you do to come to the conclusion that it is what you claim it is?

However, your claim is in error. The first Sabbath of the seven Sabbath countdown toward Shavuot began the first Saturday after Passover week. That is, it does if you believe the Hebrew Scriptures are inspired by God. According to the word of God (not the mistaken Septuagint translation) the day after the first weekly Sabbath was the day the Omer was waved. Then, and only then, was the next weekly Sabbath counted as the first weekly Sabbath in the seven Sabbath countdown toward Shavuot. The corrupt Pharisee tradition of waving the Omer on Nisan 16 is an erroneous one. If you accept the Pharisee reckoning of waving the Omer on Nisan 16, then you must accept the fact that they, according to the Septuagint, counted seven WEEKS and not seven SABBATHS to Shavuot. Under the Pharisee reckoning, Nisan 16 could fall on any day of the week, and Shavuot would fall on the same day of the week fifty days from the time the Omer was waived. You don't accept that though. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to accept the Nisan 15 as an annual Sabbath so you can begin your "first of the Sabbaths" on the first weekly Sabbath during Passover week.

The Sadducees reckoned the wave-sheaf correctly because they knew the Hebrew Scriptures plainly taught that the day AFTER the first weekly Sabbath during Passover was the waving of the Omer. Jesus is the author of Leviticus 23. He told Moses what day was the correct day of the waving of the Omer and the ensuing seven Sabbath countdown toward Shavuot (Pentecost). Jesus made no mention of an annual Sabbath in Leviticus 23:11. You have seized a Greek mistranslation of Leviticus 23:11 to form your false doctrine that there were two Sabbaths the week Jesus died. The "first of the Sabbaths" can only refer to three things.

One, it can refer to "the first of the seven weekly Sabbaths" toward Shavuot. However, this fails because the first weekly Sabbath after the crucifixion was not the beginning of the seven Sabbath countdown toward Pentecost. That began the following Sabbath.

Two, it can refer to the first of two Sabbaths in the same week, but as we have seen, there is no scriptural foundation to claim that. Nisan 15 was not a Sabbath. It's just that simple, erroneous Pharisee reckoning. Remember, they based their teaching on a mistranslation of Leviticus 23:11. Quoting Josephus does not help your case because he was a Pharisee so naturally he believed the incorrect method of Sabbath calculation. By the time the Temple ended the control of the Temple had passed from the Sadducees to the Pharisees (about 50 CE) so naturally Josephus would record the Jews celebrated the Omer on Nisan 16. This happened sometime after 50 CE.

Three, it can, according to many New Testament scholars, be an idiom for the first day of the week. I am no expert in Greek but this seems like a plausible theory for me. There was already a Greek phrase for "first day of the week" but scholars claim that "first of the Sabbaths" in the Jewish world could also refer to the first of the week. Are they correct? I don't know. I hope anyone who reads this will be able to draw their own conclusions.

The bottom line, the first two cannot withstand scriptural analysis. Here is an analysis from a website that discusses Luke 6:1

What does sabbaton deuteroproton in Luke 6:1 refer to?

According to the KJV Luke 6:1 states: And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubb...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

Here are some Bible commentaries on this verse:

Luke 6:1 Commentaries: Now it happened that He was passing through some grainfields on a Sabbath; and His disciples were picking the heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands, and eating the grain.

In fairness, another view of Luke 6:1

What is the Second First Sabbath (Luke 6:1) ?

[Luke 6] {6:1} Now it happened that, on the second first Sabbath, as he passed through the grain field, his disciples were separating the ears of grain and eating them, by rubbing them in their han…

ronconte.com

And finally, here are the many various translations of Luke 6:1 from the Bible Gateway website:

Luke 6:1 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

You assert your opinion as fact. All I want to know is WHY you believe your opinion of Luke 6:1 is fact.