Why do Christians have trouble with accepting Evolution?

[Hoghead1]

The issue here, Extraneous, is not whether science is more holy than Scripture. The basic issue here is whether your interpretation and understanding of God and Scripture is anywhere near the real thing. You are following the human-made ideology of fundamentalistic Christianity. OK,fine. But who says it is correct here?

 

[KWCrazy]

You are not being accurate or fair here at all, KW.

I am both.

The issue here isn't the Bible or God or science.

Wrong. That's exactly the issue.

Everyone views Scripture through a lens.

No, some outright reject it.

I would bet you are viewing Scripture through the lens of fundamentalist Christianity, which is an anti-intellectual approach.

The Pharisees were the "intellectuals" of Christ's day. Like you, they distorted the Scriptures, added what they wanted to add and taught things that were contrary to God's word. Christ had some rather disparaging things to say about them. He called them blind guides, fools, serpents and vipers. In short, He didn't particularly care for those who taught contrary to the Scriptures. What makes you think His opinion has changed?

On my end, I reject much of it,

I've seen that.

Either Scripture is inerrant or it's all errant and therefore worthless. Either-or thinking is unrealistic. Reality is generally a shade of grey.

Jesus said, Man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word which comes from the mouth of God. How can man know what comes from the mouth of God? We have the Scriptures. Jesus never contradicted anything in the Scriptures because He had come to fulfill them. So Jesus tells us that we need every word of the Scriptures for us to live our lives. That's pretty strong testimony that the Scriptures read as God intended; that they teach what God intended to teach; and that they reveal the truth He intended us to know. There is no truth in the words of the man who contradicts the Scriptures. We know that Scriptures are correct because they were given to man as a guide to live his life from God, and that very fact was confirmed by the son of God.

The idea of a wholly immutable God comes from Hellenic philosophy, not Scripture, and can be shown to be irrational in the first place.

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."
Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
Hebrews 6:17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
Once again, you're wrong.

The Bible has to be an accurate scientific witness.

Straw man!! Nobody says the Bible is scientific, though there are things mentioned that we only now understand in the light of scientific discoveries.

One's religious beliefs should be accepted without question and are the sole criterion upon which to judge the validity of all scientific work and research.

Another straw man. Science is the study of the physical world. It has nothing to do with the supernatural world. That is a different field of study.

The Bible is subject to many interpretations in Christianity.

Rejection of the Scriptures is not the same is having a different view of the Scriptures.

The Christian religion is monolithic, so there is just one way to be a Christian. Irrational.

Christian means "of Christ." If you're not of Christ you're not a Christian.

Not all Christians are on the right, not should be on the right.

Politics is another subject. Either you teach according to the Scriptures or you teach contrary to the Scriptures. Teaching contrary to the Scriptures is heresy. I have yet to see any theistic evolutionist justify their beliefs with the Scriptures. Not one. So unless you can justify the two what you are teaching is heresy. You have yet to address this issue. The Bible very specifically states that all living things were created in their mature state, and that everything in which there was the breath of life died in a great flood with the exception of those saved on the ark. How do these fundamental teachings fit with evolution? It's pretty obvious that they cannot. That means to believe in evolution you have to reject much of what Jesus taught. How, then, can one believe in two mutually exclusionary teachings?

 

[Hoghead1]

Miracles are a separate issue from creation. Yu need to stay on the topic. Also, it was the Reed Sea, not the Red Sea. "Red Sea" is a mistranslation.

 

[Hoghead1]

You didn't show me a thing, Extraneous. What you do show is that you view your version fundamentalistic Christianity as the one true church and so cannot be challenged in any way. That's just ridiculous bigotry.

 

[Hoghead1]

Not all scientists are atheists. And not everything that fundamentalistic Christian theology has to say is necessarily correct. That's the point you're overlooking. Your belief system can be challenged, just as anybody else's.

 

[Hieronymus]

Miracles are a separate issue from creation.

Nonsense.

 

[Armoured]

You still haven't answered my post of the mathematical calculation showing that for evolution to be true, then there had to have been speciation taking place every few days... much more frequent than that if you factor in not only speciation but the multipliers of domain, kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, and genus.
Interesting how we don't have even one example of this over the hundreds of years man has been observing these things? Why do you think this is?

Um, I did, actually. Evolution isn't linear, it's fractal branched.

 

[Armoured]

How utterly sad that people put their belief in something that is admittedly variable and ever changing.... whereas the Bible has never changed... I think I'll stick with the solid , reliable source, thank you.

You do that. I'm trying to teach you something about science to correct your misconception about "scientific proof".

 

[Julie.S]

Because you claim you're a Christian, i guess...

I am and I have been since I was a child its how I was raised. I have nothing against those who are not or believe something different.

 

[Hoghead1]

The Bible also states that God changes, in about 100 passages, KW. Also, you are missing my point. The Bible is subject to many interpretations in Christianity. You may think yours is the only one, but that is not true. Some of us with to explore richer options. You definitely are looking at Scripture through the lends of fundamentalistic Christianity. You are not directly saying what is in Scripture, you are stating how fundamentalist Christianity interprets Scripture. If you want to be a fundamentalist , OK, fine. But it doesn't work for all Christians. That is the point you keep forgetting. I am an academic. I listen only to what highly educated biblical scholars have to say about the Bible. That's my way of maintaining quality control in my belief system. I know that modern biblical studies has any one of a number od safeguards built in to prevent you from reading your ideology back into Scripture. In biblical studies, we come to the Bible, with an open mind and seek an objective exegesis by viewing Scripture through the lens crated by a healthy skepticism for church tradition. Maybe the teachings of the church are correct, maybe not. Let's test it out. Where you are having trouble here is that you are coming to the Bible with the notion fixed in your head that Scripture has to be inerrant. That is, of course, a traditional teaching of Christian fundamentalism. However, that is about the worst way you can come to the Bible in modern biblical studies. As I said, you have to come with an open mind. Maybe Scripture is inerrant, maybe not. Let's see. The problem I have with laity is that they have no such safeguards in place. Therefore, it becomes all to easy for them to project their own ideology back into Scripture and then blissfully assume Scripture is supporting them, while it may be doing precisely the opposite. Every kook, fanatic, and terrorist in the book claims that he has been moved by the Spirit and that Scripture is behind him. I am a very careful person and so I don't put any more faith in the validity and objectivity of lay interpretations of Scripture than I would put into false prophets.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, EastCoast, but the fact of the matter is that the world is continually changing, and the Bible also honors an ever-changing world.

The "Bible honors an ever-changing world"??? which text are you quoting - other than "you"?

This one?

James 4
4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”?

Or is it this one?

1 John 2
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

is this what you call - giving "honor" to an "ever-changing world"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible also states that God changes, in about 100 passages, .

Malachi 3
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever.

 

[SteveB28]

Amazingly, of those 46%, none of them can show how their Bible is compatible with evolution because it is not.

In your opinion. Millions of your fellow Christians disagree.

Belief in evolution requires a rejection of Scriptural teaching.

In your opinion.

For evolution to be true, much of the Bible has to be a lie.

So be it!

Since the first 3 chapters of Genesis are quoted over 300 times in the New Testament alone, it can be argued that Genesis is foundational.

That may be important to you, but reality cares not.

If death and sin did not come into the world through Adam, then it need not be overcome by Jesus.

So?

I have stated many times that those who believe the Bible and evolution have a firm understanding of neither.

In your opinion.

They are mutually exclusive. Want to prove me wrong? Show where the Scriptures tell of the evolution of all living things from a single progenitor over billions of years. I've been asking for decades. No theistic evolutionist can answer.

Again, the REAL world exists as it does, no matter your beliefs.

 

[SteveB28]

The theory of evolution makes no comment on the origins of life. It is concerned with the descent of species.

Darwin's book is called the Origin of Species. Get it straight.

Is this what you are reduced to? Clinging to a word?

Tell me, are my "origins" in this country the first living thing here!?

 

[KWCrazy]

You definitely are looking at Scripture through the lends of fundamentalistic Christianity. You are not directly saying what is in Scripture, you are stating how fundamentalist Christianity interprets Scripture.

Your statement is 100% false.

I am an academic. I listen only to what highly educated biblical scholars have to say about the Bible.

I went to college too. Maybe you can have one of your professors answer my questions, since you can't. I have no interest in what the Pharisees say about the Scriptures.

Where you are having trouble here is that you are coming to the Bible with the notion fixed in your head that Scripture has to be inerrant.

If the Scriptures are not accurate then they are not the word of God. If they are not the word of God then they have no value. Christ taught that the Scriptures were not only accurate, but that they were in fact the word of God.

The problem I have with laity is that they have no such safeguards in place.

The problem I have with false teachers is that they teach from their own belief or lack of belief and they can't back up what they say with actual passages from Scripture. A true biblical scholar would support their premise, as I have, with verses from the Scriptures; like where I showed you that the Bible describes God as unchanging. I see bluster and pomposity but no substance. It's time to put up or shut up. Either demonstrate your premise with the Scriptures or admit that you cannot.

 

[BobRyan]

My question to you now is this:

Why does it matter so much that I believe the same as you or others?

I'm not trying to be rude or start an argument I am curious as to why this matters so much.
You do not know all that I believe but honestly it should not matter that much as there are more pressing things going on in the world.

Some folks prefer the color blue - some prefer the color purple or pink or red. I say each person has free will let them choose whatever they wish.

But it matters whether one chooses heaven or hell.

AND Darwin, Dawkins, Meyers et al. claim that evolutionism drove them off a cliff - though they began as Christians.

Here is a recent "victim" - a T.E. pleading for "help".

===============================

Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!
===================================================

And of course that thread started by our poor pleading T.E. friend - is ultimately swamped by atheist and agnostic posts of the form "all-praise-evolution". Not too surprising that atheists don't really care if our poor T.E. friend is driven to reject the Bible - by his faith in evolutionism.

But what is more surprising is that some of the same T.E. posters here on the thread you are on -- also contribute to that thread once the atheists take over - and they too merely have the same "all-praise-evolution" focus -- find the "Cause" of uplifting blind-faith evolutionism of far more "Value" than helping some one not reject the Bible, than helping a T.E. avoid the lake of fire in Rev 20.

Now your question seems to be 'why should it matter'. Are you asking that question in this larger context?

 

[KWCrazy]

In your opinion. Millions of your fellow Christians disagree.

If your opinion cannot be validated with the Scriptures, then your opinion has no value.

In your opinion.

Your inability to produce Scripture to support your premise validates my opinion.

So be it!

Since no Christian believes his Bible to be false, then evolution must be false.

That may be important to you, but reality cares not.

Reality? Reality is that the OP asks a question why Christians have trouble supporting the lie of evolution of the truth of God's word. The answer is pretty obvious. Evolution is a lie.

Again, the REAL world exists as it does, no matter your beliefs.

You have no understanding of the real world. If you did, you would know that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. You would know that the Creator of the universe is Lord of the universe. His word is truth; not man's.

 

[Julie.S]

Some folks prefer the color blue - some prefer the color purple or pink or red. I say each person has free will let them choose whatever they wish.

But it matters whether one chooses heaven or hell.

AND Darwin, Dawkins, Meyers et al. claim that evolutionism drove them off a cliff - though they began as Christians.

Here is a recent "victim" - a T.E. pleading for "help".

===============================


===========================

Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!
===================================================

And of course that thread started by our poor pleading T.E. friend - is ultimately swamped by atheist and agnostic posts of the form "all-praise-evolution". Not too surprising that atheists don't really care if our poor T.E. friend is driven to reject the Bible - by his faith in evolutionism.

But what is more surprising is that some of the same T.E. posters here on the thread you are on -- also contribute to that thread once the atheists take over - and they too merely have the same "all-praise-evolution" focus -- find the "Cause" of uplifting blind-faith evolutionism of far more "Value" than helping some one not reject the Bible, than helping a T.E. avoid the lake of fire in Rev 20.

Now your question seems to be 'why should it matter'. Are you asking that question in this larger context?

I am saying this because some people seem to panic when someone does not agree with what their religion believes 100%.
I find this to not be a good thing.

This is the internet and we can only do so much. I will do what I can for people but I will not loose sleep over someone going to Hell or Heaven. This does not make me or anyone who is the same uncaring at all. We do what we can to help and walk away knowing we did what we could.

You can give someone all the info in the world. Them using it is not up to you though its all them.

 

[BobRyan]

Christians have known for a long time that T.E. survives only by ignoring the details in the serious questions that expose it's flaws.

Here is a case in point. The author of this post is asking a serious question as a "believer" in T.E.

Leevo said: ↑
For those of you who hold to theistic evolution, what do you believe about Adam and Eve?

If you believe they are only mythological to explain human tendency to sin, then how do you reconcile verses such as Romans 5:12?

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—"

If there was no literal fall of humanity, then there would be no need for Christ to have come, no?

If you believe they are literal humans, do you believe that they were the first of the homo-sapiens or only the first two with a soul? I still can't reconcile the Fall of humanity if they were not the first two human beings...

DISCLAIMER: I believe in evolution, just can't find a suitable way to reconcile these.

The question raised stems from the irrefutable fact - that even for the serious T.E. there is no bridge between the religion of blind faith evolutionism and the religion of the Bible. Marrying these two religions results in myriad of Bible denying conflicts.

Here is another serious T.E. effort to address that question - that exposes a key flaw in the T.E. paradigm.

Papias said: ↑
OK - what if, hypothetically, I called that first creature to conceive of deities, "Adam"? I don't have to put a finger on exactly when - I can say that whenever it happened, I'll call that person "Adam".

The sad result of that sort of evolutionism - is it means God punished all mankind - and Christ had to be tortured on the cross - because "some hominid bashing in his daily ration of monkey brains - happened upon a bad thought one day" - then the atheist's mocking of the gospel is amplified 1000 fold and it is all nonsense.

The idea that all mankind must burn in hell because of some dunderhead barely-able-to-imagine-deity-exists "Adam" ate an apple or "had a bad thought" or "Bashed in the monkey's head the wrong way" -- is the most cruel and unjust unGod-like action thinkable for dooming the entire planet. Which fits the TE paradigm perfectly!

TE makes a mockery of the Bible, of God, of the Gospel - and logic.

This is irrefutable.

And what does TE gain by such a horrific sacrifice? They claim they are gaining friendship with the atheist's "religion" of blind faith evolutionism.

James 4 says "friendship with the world is hostility toward God".

I believe the Bible.

Percivale said: ↑
I don't think science can say just how gradual the transition was from prehumans to humans. Perhaps a couple hundred thousand years ago God rearranged the DNA in a prehuman womb so that Adam (Eve likewise) was born with fully human intelligence while his parents had no real language and intelligence as close to that of chimps as to humans. I think what you believe about that has more to do with your view of miracles than of science. All humans descended from them, though at times some people interbred with pre-humans

"just-so-stories" where amoeba will sure-enough over time turn into a horse - given a sufficient amount of time, sunlight and just-so-storytelling - is the religion of evolutionism that is deemed all-sufficient to trash the Bible doctrine on origins (by some).

Saltations where brute hominid morphs into Einstein or Moses or Solomon in a single generation are not "likely". More like "Big whopping miracle goes here". And if science were all about "big whopping miracles" - then the 7 day creation account of the Bible - would not be the problem for atheists that it is today.

Do you "believe in" the unscientific facts of
the literal virgin birth,
incarnation of Christ,
literal bodily resurrection of Christ,
literal bodily ascension of Christ,
the 2nd coming,
the miracles of the NT...
the prophetic statements in the NT where NT authors claim God speaks to people and they write what God said...
and the literal 7 day creation week...
and the literal world wide flood?

Pretty hard to do that and still claim that all your beliefs are reproducible in the lab or agreeable to atheist scientists or that they do not contradict what science clearly shows to be the case in the lab for 'what happens to dead people over time' or "how babies are born' - or 'who really hears God speak' or "how to create an entire planet in 7 days'.

 

[BobRyan]

But it matters whether one chooses heaven or hell.

AND Darwin, Dawkins, Meyers et al. claim that evolutionism drove them off a cliff - though they began as Christians.

Here is a recent "victim" - a T.E. pleading for "help".

===============================

Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!
===================================================

And of course that thread started by our poor pleading T.E. friend - is ultimately swamped by atheist and agnostic posts of the form "all-praise-evolution". Not too surprising that atheists don't really care if our poor T.E. friend is driven to reject the Bible - by his faith in evolutionism.

But what is more surprising is that some of the same T.E. posters here on the thread you are on -- also contribute to that thread once the atheists take over - and they too merely have the same "all-praise-evolution" focus -- find the "Cause" of uplifting blind-faith evolutionism of far more "Value" than helping some one not reject the Bible, than helping a T.E. avoid the lake of fire in Rev 20.

Now your question seems to be 'why should it matter'. Are you asking that question in this larger context?

how do you value the worth of a human soul? ... above blind faith in evolutionism or ...?

I am saying this because some people seem to panic when someone does not agree with what their religion believes 100%.
I find this to not be a good thing.

I believe everyone has free will, can choose as they wish... Adam and Eve certainly did.

At the same time - I prefer to see the evolutionists not be stuck in the pit that we see that T.E. poster in the example demonstrating for us - and so also Darwin demonstrating for us... and so also Dawkins.. and so also Meyers... and so also a host of atheists over on the other boards - claiming that most of them started out as Christians.

i.e. - the real world we live in.

This is the internet and we can only do so much. I will do what I can for people but I will not loose sleep over someone going to Hell or Heaven.

Might you lose a few minutes of sleep - if God revealed to you that you were complicit in their downward course? That you were working for the forces of darkness by declaring to them that the Bible is not to be taken seriously???

This does not make me or anyone who is the same uncaring at all.

I have no problem with presenting truth to people and then letting them choose light or darkness as they wish.