.

[Peter J Barban]

Where in Acts 15 is good fruit the determinant of correct doctrine? Or anywhere else for that matter?

For example in John 7:16-17 "16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

Jesus did not say believe me because of all the Bible verse that I quote though he did quote many verses.

Jesus told people to test out his teaching. After people followed it they would see the fruit, the results. It is the results that confirm the teaching.

The same with Acts 15, they listened to the missionary reports, about how gentiles were turning to God without circumcision or the Law of Moses, even showing signs of the Holy Spirit, like tongues. After the Council of Jerusalem saw the fruit, the great results, then they then understood Paul and Barnabus were right, rather that the party of the Pharisees.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Judge Ministry and Doctrine by its Fruit

Consider Paul in 2 Corinthians 11-12 There were false apostles in Corinth teaching false doctrine. Paul did not just try to overwhelm these false teachers with a firehose of proof-texts. Instead, he pointed out his fruit, that is his ministry, his deeds, his signs and wonders, his suffering and sacrifice to prove that his teaching was correct.

See, Paul was dealing with the real world beyond forums, where people are convinced by the fruit of character and deeds more than the opinions random nobodies on the internet.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Another powerful example of judging teaching and ministry by fruit is from Jesus in Luke 7:20-23 where John the Baptist has doubts about Jesus. Jesus was not teaching and acting as John's theology expected, so he sent his disciples to examine Jesus. Jesus doesn't just quote scripture. He also tells John's disciples to look at the evidence for themselves. The fruit of Jesus ministry proves that he is the fulfillment of prophecy.

"20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?’”

21 At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22 So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[a] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

This is more confirmation that the best way to judge if God speaks today is to examine the fruit of those who claim to hear from God. Does anyone need more evidence from the Bible? I can provide more.

 

[swordsman1]

For example in John 7:16-17 "16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

Jesus did not say believe me because of all the Bible verse that I quote though he did quote many verses.

Jesus told people to test out his teaching. After people followed it they would see the fruit, the results. It is the results that confirm the teaching.

Jesus didn't say "Look at my fruitful ministry to find out whether my teaching comes from God". He said "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God".

The same with Acts 15, they listened to the missionary reports, about how gentiles were turning to God without circumcision or the Law of Moses, even showing signs of the Holy Spirit, like tongues. After the Council of Jerusalem saw the fruit, the great results, then they then understood Paul and Barnabus were right, rather that the party of the Pharisees.

In Acts 15 The council at Jerusalem accepted the gentiles as they were because they received the Holy Spirit in the same way the disciples did at Pentecost. Not because of the success of Paul's ministry.

Consider Paul in 2 Corinthians 11-12 There were false apostles in Corinth teaching false doctrine. Paul did not just try to overwhelm these false teachers with a firehose of proof-texts. Instead, he pointed out his fruit, that is his ministry, his deeds, his signs and wonders, his suffering and sacrifice to prove that his teaching was correct.

See, Paul was dealing with the real world beyond forums, where people are convinced by the fruit of character and deeds more than the opinions random nobodies on the internet.

Strawman. Paul was not defending his doctrines. He was defending his position as a true apostle against the false apostles who had infiltrated the church. He therefore points to his qualifications as an apostle, not to his successful ministry.

Another powerful example of judging teaching and ministry by fruit is from Jesus in Luke 7:20-23 where John the Baptist has doubts about Jesus. Jesus was not teaching and acting as John's theology expected, so he sent his disciples to examine Jesus. Jesus doesn't just quote scripture. He also tells John's disciples to look at the evidence for themselves. The fruit of Jesus ministry proves that he is the fulfillment of prophecy.

"20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?’”

21 At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22 So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[a] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

This is more confirmation that the best way to judge if God speaks today is to examine the fruit of those who claim to hear from God. Does anyone need more evidence from the Bible? I can provide more.

Another strawman. John the Baptist wasn't out to determine if Jesus's doctrines were correct, but whether he was the Messiah.

A fruitful, successful ministry is no determinant of true doctrines. Mormons and JW's have successful ministries, recruiting many people to their folds, doing fine charitable deeds, and having impeccable personal conduct. Should we therefore believe their doctrines?

As of now, my position on finding the truth is biblical and yours is not.

This is how the bible tells us to determine truth:

Acts 17:11 "Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so."

2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"

John 8:31 Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Isa 8:20 "Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn."

1 John 4:6 "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood."

Matthew 22:29 "But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

And how did Jesus defend against the onslaught of false doctrines from Satan in wilderness? "It is written....", "It is written....", "It is written...."

 

[Arsenios]

All those examples of God's "voice" I quoted were previously given, recorded and passed on revelations (the Law, covenant, prophecy, Christ's teachings). None of them were feelings or impressions in the peoples minds, nor are there any such examples anywhere in scripture.

God is not limited in His means of communication with us...

We do not literally hear his "voice".

Here is how we literally hear his voice - And you might even notice that it is a very Biblical account and that the one hearing it is only a disciple of the Lord:

Act 9:10-16
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias;
and to him said the Lord in a vision,
"Ananias."
And he said, "Behold, I am here, Lord."
And the Lord said unto him,
"Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight,
and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus:
for, behold, he is praying, And hath seen in a vision
a man named Ananias coming in,
and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight."
Then Ananias answered,
"Lord, I have heard by many of this man,
how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests
to bind all that call on thy name."
But the Lord said unto him,
"Go thy way:
for he is a chosen vessel unto Me,
to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My Name's sake."

You have said yourself
you hear no audible words.
So it does require interpretation.

Did Ananias hear any audible words?

You see, he heard words and recorded them for you to read...

All those red words above: Christ's very words, inaudibly heard in an oh so real noetic vision...

Revelation is the same: It tells us in the first chapter:

Rev 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

BUT...

Was this great voice audible?

Would your microphone record it??

"My voice" is either Christ speaking to you via your gut feelings, impressions, or "conscience" as you called it (although that defies the meaning of conscience) which has no biblical precedence, OR it is His previously recorded words and teachings which absolutely does.

This is blah-blah... Human fallen logical and faulty inference based on false premises without having first hand experience of the events... You would do well to simply say that you do not know anything about these matters, and that you are relying on your personal interpretations of other people's reports [eg Scripture] of events of which they had first hand knowledge or reports from those who did... eg Ananias told Luke who wrote it down in Acts as he remembered it... Or perhaps Ananias told Paul who told Luke who wrote it down... But Luke was NOT THERE when it happened... The same applies to much of Scripture...

Any new message from God is a new revelation.

"Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen"
And His sheep know the Sound of His Voice...
All this prior to the Canon of NT Scripture...

You... claim this is God giving you a new personal message.
Please correct me if I got it wrong.

There goes my coffee AGAIN!

You guys simply have to get off the sauce!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Again, you complete fail to respond to what is said. No one in this thread said "God has changed." We are saying that God is doing different things when he speaks, but he still has the same attributes. To follow your thinking I would have to say God changed his attributes when he stopped creating. Did God create in 7 days and then stop creating (rest)? Did God command the Law, and then have us not worship him with sacrificial animals? Did God change his attributes when he had the sacrifice stop? You confuse God changing his attributes with God changing what he is doing.

God is still giving prophesy in the NT Church, and you are saying he is not...

God has spoken in the scriptures,

God spoke and His words were recorded by men in the Scriptures...

and is still speaking by them to generations today.

And He still speaks to men and women today, and with some of them, even AS THEY ARE READING Scripture...

And yes, there is a lot of demonic deception speaking in a lot of folks...

The apostles quoted the Hebrew scriptures in their day as the word of God. We can still quote the scriptures today as the word of God. This does not mean continuing revelation is required.

Continuing prophetic Revelation is recorded in Scripture...

Strange, the apostles stopped writing in the 1st century.

"As for man, his life-span be three score and ten years, and perhaps four score..."

Strange for you maybe... Why is that so strange??

The apostles even recognized one another's writings as scriptural when they were written. Please consult the New Testament in 2nd Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsteadfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction
If Peter equates Pauls writings as scripture in the 1st century, how do you say that "we closed the canon in the 4th century."

Why are you re-writing the Bible here?
There is no word "SCRIPTURE" in Peter's text...
Are you re-opening the Canon??

You seem ignorant of both the scriptures and history.

How can I ignore my ignorance??

Who gave the Church any such authority to "close the canon?"

Christ is the Head of His body, the Church...
So are you asking Him Who gave Him such AUTHORITY???
It is hard to cleanse the lens of Latin Rome...

"But it seemed good to us and to the Holy Spirit..."

I am aware that certain Church Fathers made lists of books they considered canonical.
I am aware that a few minor early Church councils made lists of books, such as Hippo.
But the Church Fathers and councils contradicted each other all the time.

blah blah blah...

You make the statements you do thinking that they prove sola ecclesia, they do not.

Do you know the difference between sola and hola?

You are a sola and cannot understand those of us who are holas...

kata-sola vs kata-hola...

kat-solics vs cat-holics...

We understand all according to the whole, you see...
You understand all according to the part, you don't see...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

And how did Jesus defend against the onslaught of false doctrines from Satan in wilderness? "It is written....", "It is written....", "It is written...."

He was NOT defending against false doctrines -
You are re-writing Holy Scripture.

He was led into the wilderness to be TEMPTED, and AFTER He had fasted 40 days and 40 nights, He hungered - And THEN came the Devil to tempt him... And each temptation of the Devil came from Scripture, and each was answered by Scripture, but first and foremost was vanity - Quoting Scripture does serve the purpose of avoiding vanity: "IF Thou be the Son of God..." answered by "It is written..."

See how that works - No false doctrines...
Only temptations...
Only after fasting fully...

Humbling the demon
by using the very Scripture he was using
to overturn him...

And maintaining perfect humility in His Own Person thereby...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

A fruitful, successful ministry is no determinant of true doctrines.

By their fruit shall ye know THEM...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I am definitely SS all the way
And not a fan of ST. (Sacred Tradition)
Can we still be friends?

Dat be BANK!

Arsenios

 

[sunlover1]

All those examples of God's "voice" I quoted were previously given, recorded and passed on revelations (the Law, covenant, prophecy, Christ's teachings).

Well, eventually they were recorded, yes.
Or we couldn't be reading them now

None of them were feelings or impressions in the peoples minds, nor are there any such examples anywhere in scripture.

I'm sorry sir, but this is not a fact.
You or i have no way of knowing how.

 

[sunlover1]

Dat be BANK!

Arsenios

Now remember that when we argue SS v ST

 

[sunlover1]

He was NOT defending against false doctrines -
You are re-writing Holy Scripture.

He was led into the wilderness to be TEMPTED, and AFTER He had fasted 40 days and 40 nights, He hungered - And THEN came the Devil to tempt him... And each temptation of the Devil came from Scripture, and each was answered by Scripture, but first and foremost was vanity - Quoting Scripture does serve the purpose of avoiding vanity: "IF Thou be the Son of God..." answered by "It is written..."

See how that works - No false doctrines...
Only temptations...
Only after fasting fully...

Humbling the demon
by using the very Scripture he was using
to overturn him...

And maintaining perfect humility in His Own Person thereby...

Arsenios

This one i do fully agree with.
Reposted it just because it's
an awesome message.
Not sure it will 'bless' everyone,
but it did me.. Cool!

 

[swordsman1]

Here is how we literally hear his voice - And you might even notice that it is a very Biblical account and that the one hearing it is only a disciple of the Lord:

Act 9:10-16
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias;
and to him said the Lord in a vision,
"Ananias."
And he said, "Behold, I am here, Lord."
And the Lord said unto him,
"Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight,
and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus:
for, behold, he is praying, And hath seen in a vision
a man named Ananias coming in,
and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight."
Then Ananias answered,
"Lord, I have heard by many of this man,
how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests
to bind all that call on thy name."
But the Lord said unto him,
"Go thy way:
for he is a chosen vessel unto Me,
to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My Name's sake."

You have said yourself
you hear no audible words.
So it does require interpretation.

Did Ananias hear any audible words?

You see, he heard words and recorded them for you to read...

All those red words above: Christ's very words, inaudibly heard in an oh so real noetic vision...

You have brought this argument up before. As I pointed out then, your reasoning is flawed.

Firstly, Ananias had a vision which is not what we are discussing here. Nobody here is claiming to receive visions, but rather we are discussing the claim that God speaks to people via an inner voice in their minds. So right off the bat your argument is irrelevant.

Secondly, you are trying to claim something as being normative for today from a specific unique event in biblical history. Which is a dangerous thing to do. The book of Acts is full of extraordinary or miraculous events in a time of unparalleled change in redemptive history when God was establishing and authenticating the fledgling church. It is therefore folly to pluck out a particular event and claim it is normative for today. Otherwise you end up in all sorts of trouble. Should we expect to have tongues of fire descending upon us today? Should we expect to raise the dead today? Should we expect to heal people with our shadows. Etc, etc.

Thirdly yes the Lord did speak those words audibly to Ananias in his vision. It plainly says "The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street, ..." and "But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument ....". They were the very words the Lord said to Ananias. Not a strong feeling from his "conscience" which he then verbalized, like we see today.

Revelation is the same: It tells us in the first chapter:

Rev 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

BUT...

Was this great voice audible?

Would your microphone record it??

It was audible to John. Otherwise how could he record the exact words the Lord said?

 

[swordsman1]

I'm sorry sir, but this is not a fact.
You or i have no way of knowing how.

It is a fact.

The Law was not an impression in the people's minds.
God's covenants that were made know to the people were not an impression in their minds.
The prophecies given to the people were not an impression in their minds.
The salvific words of Christ are not an impression in people's minds.

All of them described as God's "voice".

 

[swordsman1]

By their fruit shall ye know THEM...

Arsenios

Exactly. And not "By their fruit shall ye know WHETHER THEIR DOCTRINES ARE TRUE."

 

[Extraneous]

This-

2 Timothy 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

False Teachers and the Love of Money
1 Timothy 6:2 These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Final Charge to Timothy
11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.


Romans 8:5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him

 

[sunlover1]

It is a fact.

The Law was not an impression in the people's minds.
God's covenants that were made know to the people were not an impression in their minds.
The prophecies given to the people were not an impression in their minds.
The salvific words of Christ are not an impression in people's minds.

All of them described as God's "voice".

I hope those reading do their own research because even
If all of the passages you posted were as you say, that
still does not mean that is the ONLY way He speaks...
What about the passages I posted?

 

[sunlover1]

Exactly. And not "By their fruit shall ye know WHETHER THEIR DOCTRINES ARE TRUE."

you know a tree by the fruit it produces,
In the same way, you can KNOW if it's God speaking
by the FRUIT it produces.
My testimonies aren't about some new revelation!
They're God HELPING other's through me.
The time I heard Him say that He was giving her a baby.
And another time with another woman , same thing.
And the time He gave my son a free ride to a private
Christian college.
Another time, it was a vision, intended to cause me to
pray for the neighbor who fell and laid on her floor alone
for 24 hours (I had no idea about the 'why" of visions at
that time.
Another time a vision which was to cause me to pray for
a relative who had cancer.
And i can go on and on.
ALWAYS to help someone,
NEVER new revelation for the world.
ALWAYS for me/us, alone.
He's always looking for a man who will
stand in the gap.
HE LOVES His creation, with a love we
can only imagine

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It's likely fruitless at this point, but the OP asked if prayer was a two-way conversation. In other words, you talk to God, and He talks back. That is the question.

 

[Arsenios]

Now remember that when we argue SS v ST

K

A