Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[Albion]

Granted, except for the part where you say that infant baptism can be deducted from Scripture.

That's already been provided to you. Move on.

Furthermore, as you have admitted, the fact that the early church practised infant baptism does not make it acceptable. The Bible shows that baptism is by faith, not luck or randomness.

That's certainly a self-serving remark. No one baptizes random people, and it's insulting to say that the vast majority of Christians of almost all denominations who do baptise their children are doing it in some random way or...by "luck?" However, I already saw that you do not understand the meaning of Baptism as understood in historic Christianity and in the mainstream churches, so I can appreciate that much. I'd just appreciate it if the effort to ridicule all of us who are not Baptists would be toned down a little bit.

 

[Albion]

Our prayer to Saints is "to ask or petition" (collins dictionary).

When we or the Saints pray to God it is in the form of "adoration/worshipping God" (collins dictionary)

Once again, the "asking" of saints is accompanied by kneeling before shrines, lighting candles to them, bowing and genuflecting to them or representations of them, stating in prayers to them that they DO have the ability to deliver (you never saw the publication of thanks to St. Jude that many people have printed in their newspapers??), acceptance of such alleged spiritual benefits as wearing scapulars, novenas, making First Fridays, and etc. are believed to grant...

is not just "asking."

 

[Goatee]

I 'pray' to St Padre Pio but i dont do so in front of a statue etc of him but by looking at my crucifix! I place an image of God in my mind. I am asking St Pio to intercede for me. Just like lots of people ask a priest or a friend etc to pray for them!

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Alright, I'm done with you. We can't have a discussion if you don't understand that different interpretations can be applied to the same text. All of my points were clearly stated, and I'll just keep repeating myself if this goes any further. No hard feelings against you personally, but that's enough for me. I'm still adamant on my beliefs, and it's a shame you can't even try to understand them. God bless.

It's OK. I suppose we have reached that natural point in the discussion in which we have said everything we had to say — and I believe that I have proven you wrong and you believe my proof is invalid, and you believe you have proven me wrong and I believe your proof is invalid. If we cannot agree on this and there is no more proof, then I suppose we both rest our cases and agree that there is nothing more to be said. God bless you too!

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

That's already been provided to you. Move on.

And I have also provided to you with an explanation as to why infant baptism cannot be deducted from those passages. Move on.

That's certainly a self-serving remark. No one baptizes random people, and it's insulting to say that the vast majority of Christians of almost all denominations who do baptise their children are doing it in some random way or...by "luck?"

What I meant by that comment was the following: what determines whether a baby is baptised or not? Whether or not he is born in a Christian household. And what determines whether or not he is born in a Christian household? Randomness (or ‘luck’, if you will, but I think that ‘randomness’ is more adequate). Therefore, what decides whether a baby is baptised or not is purely a factor of randomness. It seems more adequate to require baptism as a response to faith, not randomness.

However, I already saw that you do not understand the meaning of Baptism as understood in historic Christianity and in the mainstream churches, so I can appreciate that much.

And I have already seen that you do not understand the meaning of baptism as taught by the Bible.

I'd just appreciate it if the effort to ridicule all of us who are not Baptists would be toned down a little bit.

I was not trying to ridicule you guys. I am so sorry, I deeply apologise if you felt ridiculed or offended by what I said. That was not at all my intention. All I wanted was to have a biblically-based discussion, and not to ridicule anyone. I am so sorry!

By the way, as I have said in post #145, it does not seem likely to me that Baptists are the only ones to reject infant baptism (an example being Got Questions Ministries, which is interdenominational but also rejects infant baptism). So, I am not ridiculing all those who are not Baptists. Again, my intention was not to ridicule anyone, and again I reiterate my apologies.

 

[Albion]

And I have also provided to you with an explanation as to why infant baptism cannot be deducted from those passages. Move on.

Are you mocking me?

What I meant by that comment was the following: what determines whether a baby is baptised or not? Whether or not he is born in a Christian household. And what determines whether or not he is born in a Christian household? Randomness (or ‘luck’, if you will, but I think that ‘randomness’ is more adequate). Therefore, what decides whether a baby is baptised or not is purely a factor of randomness. It seems more adequate to require baptism as a response to faith, not randomness.

OK. I follow the reasoning there.

By the way, as I have said in post #145, it does not seem likely to me that Baptists are the only ones to reject infant baptism (an example being Got Questions Ministries, which is interdenominational but also rejects infant baptism).

Well, they're almost all Baptists without the name. That's been mentioned a number of times here by one poster or another.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Are you mocking me? […]

No! By no means! I was just saying that I believe I have already refuted that idea, using the same sentence structure as you did. I did not mean to mock you or to offend you.

[…] Well, they're almost all Baptists without the name. That's been mentioned a number of times here by one poster or another.

Possibly. But they identify themselves as interdenominational, and it seems that they have people from different denominations there. But I may be wrong! It's just a matter of going into a non-Baptist church and ask them their views on baptism; if I find one that agrees with me, I shall tell you about it.

 

[Albion]

Possibly. But they identify themselves as interdenominational, and it seems that they have people from different denominations there.

I don't know whom you have in mind. As I recall, the posters who have made that point in the past represented a variety of denominations.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

I don't know whom you have in mind. As I recall, the posters who have made that point in the past represented a variety of denominations.

I had Got Questions Ministries in mind, whom I mentioned in post #245. I thought that was whom we were talking about.

 

[Albion]

I had Got Questions Ministries in mind, whom I mentioned in post #245. I thought that was whom we were talking about.

When you said "they" I assumed you meant the posters who had been referred to before.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

When you said "they" I assumed you meant the posters who had been referred to before.

Ah! OK.

 

[katholischen_miliz]

Many Anglicans at least used to pray to saints, however that's a die practice. Catholics and orthodox, among others, still practice it.

 

[Cis.jd]

Hmm... None of those passages allows praying to saints. Besides, what does ‘being alive in Christ’ have anything to do with ‘being able to hear our prayers’?

Basically, what his verses mean is that praying to saints isn't in a form of worship, it's done under the same context of intercession. All the older Christians, to even the Jews, prayed to those in Heaven for assistance in prayer.. to us it's just like asking anybody in your church to pray for you. We don't believe that the physical death separates a person from being a christian, because JN 3:16 says "who so ever believes in HIM WILL NOT PERISH but have ever lasting life. Hence "the forever alive" has a lot to do with it.

Praying to the people to heaven to help and pray for us is a practice that reaches to even the ancient hebrews. It's only neo protestantism that birthed past the 16th century that ended up claiming this as wrong. If you think it is wrong to ask fellow christians to pray for you, then you should start refusing to asking even your earthly christians to pray for you as well.

 

[Cis.jd]

Calm down. Those prayers wont get answered anyway. I mean if they were surely we'd have an exclusive st andrews faith community on CF. peopled by christians named Andrew.

Ok lets try praying one now. Saint andrew, I dont know you, but, if you're listening can you show the OP that Jesus is Lord. Thanks.

You can't pray like that. The actual form the way Christians approach saints is: "Saint Andrew, I don't know you, but if you are listening can you assist me in prayer that you can show the OP that Jesus is Lord".

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Basically, what his verses mean is that praying to saints isn't in a form of worship, it's done under the same context of intercession. All the older Christians, to even the Jews, prayed to those in Heaven for assistance in prayer.. to us it's just like asking anybody in your church to pray for you. We don't believe that the physical death separates a person from being a christian, because JN 3:16 says "who so ever believes in HIM WILL NOT PERISH but have ever lasting life. Hence "the forever alive" has a lot to do with it.

Praying to the people to heaven to help and pray for us is a practice that reaches to even the ancient hebrews. It's only neo protestantism that birthed past the 16th century that ended up claiming this as wrong. If you think it is wrong to ask fellow christians to pray for you, then you should start refusing to asking even your earthly christians to pray for you as well.

You are just repeating the same debunked nonsense uttered four months ago. Look, physical death is something you cannot deny. If a Christian dies, he dies. The Bible does not say that you can still ask him to pray for you, or even that he can hear you from Heaven.

It is not intercession. You cannot intercede to people in Heaven, who are no longer on Earth. Of course they are alive, but in Heaven, not here. They (probably) cannot even hear you speak!

Asking someone here on Earth to pray for you is OK and biblically encouraged. Asking people is Heaven to pray for you is wrong and biblically not encouraged. They are two different things.

 

[Cis.jd]

You are just repeating the same debunked nonsense uttered four months ago. Look, physical death is something you cannot deny. If a Christian dies, he dies. The Bible does not say that you can still ask him to pray for you, or even that he can hear you from Heaven.

How is this debunked? All christiandom prior to the 17th century believed in praying to the heavenly hosts for intercession, that is academically proof. They built this belief because of scripture and the fact that even the Jews of Christs time did it. The Jews prayed to Elijah because they knew/believed that he reached heaven, all people who reach heaven are not completely dead. They are just physically dead. The spirit is the actual life of a Human being, not the flesh and bone. If you say "a christian dies, he dies" you now have rejected the purpose of the cross. The Bible does say that we christians are supposed to pray for one another and I believe I cited revelations that shows the saints of heaven are giving the prayers of the saints on earth.

It is not intercession. You cannot intercede to people in Heaven, who are no longer on Earth. Of course they are alive, but in Heaven, not here. They (probably) cannot even hear you speak!

Revelation says you can.

Asking someone here on Earth to pray for you is OK and biblically encouraged. Asking people is Heaven to pray for you is wrong and biblically not encouraged. They are two different things.

Where is it biblically discouraged to ask the people and angels in heaven to pray for you?
Look at Ps 103:20 Praise the Lord, you his angels, you mighty ones, who do his bidding....
We is he talking/asking directly to heavenly hosts if by you and your claim, "asking people in heaven to pray for you".. If you reply:"He is referring to angels, not people" does this mean that it is ok to spiritually "ask" (pray) angels only?
and if it is ONLY angels then why is it in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense? If it is wrong or if they are not aware of it, then how can they offer something God forbids or totally deaf too?

Why is it, that only the protestant denominations that birthed during the 17th century -- more than 500 years after the Bible was canonized see this as unscriptural? All the older ones, including the first church "the unified church of Rome and the East" to Judaism believed this?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Revelation says you can.

Revelation makes no such claim.

 

[Cis.jd]

Revelation makes no such claim.

"the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). How are they just getting these prayers and why are they presenting it as an offering?
"[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4). Prayers coming out of the angels hands and going before God? I know you will probably self-rationalize it but what is underlined shows it is being passed to God. How would these prayers be in the hands of the Angels or Elders?

 

[bbbbbbb]

"the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). How are they just getting these prayers and why are they presenting it as an offering?
"[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4). Prayers coming out of the angels hands and going before God? I know you will probably self-rationalize it but what is underlined shows it is being passed to God. How would these prayers be in the hands of the Angels or Elders?

I knew, of course, you would refer to these verses. Neither verse states where these saints who offer prayers are located. They could be on earth or in heaven. We do not know. We cannot, therefore, assert that saints on earth can, and should, pray to saints in heaven. Nor, I will add, are any of the prayers in these verses, addressed to angels or the 24 elders, or even through them. It would be just as reasonable to say that people can pray to incense in heaven because prayers are seen here as being relayed through incense to God. When was the last time you addressed a prayer to holy incense?

As an added note, these prayers are those of saints. According to Catholic theology, members of its church cannot know if, indeed, they are Saints (because that would be presumption on their part). Thus, if only the prayers of saint ascend to God, virtually no prayers offered by Catholics make it past the ceiling of the room in which they are offered.

 

[Cis.jd]

I knew, of course, you would refer to these verses. Neither verse states where these saints who offer prayers are located. They could be on earth or in heaven. We do not know. We cannot, therefore, assert that saints on earth can, and should, pray to saints in heaven. Nor, I will add, are any of the prayers in these verses, addressed to angels or the 24 elders, or even through them. It would be just as reasonable to say that people can pray to incense in heaven because prayers are seen here as being relayed through incense to God. When was the last time you addressed a prayer to holy incense?

We do know they are in heaven because when you read the entire chapters that follow and lead on you can the setting is in Heaven. Even in In Revelation 6:9-10 you can see martyred saints are praying imprecatory prayers against their murderers, urging the Lord to avenge their deaths. How can the setting be anywhere else other than Heaven?

Now back to 5:8, there is no logical reasoning to deny that it is being offered. People can pray to incense, Really? What word in that verse indicated that? "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. You have this verse telling you immediately what these incense are." The explanation of what the incense is was given here. So when rendered, the angels and the elders were holding a golden bowl that was full of prayers. And these prayers came out of these bowls (that is what incense does) eventually traveled to God. the verse so clear and directly explains it's own symbology and you are shooting random stuff on it. There is a reason why all the early christians believed this, this was definitely a known and approve practice based on scripture.
Heaven would be a very strange place, and God a very strange Father, if Christians in heaven were prohibited from intercessory prayer. Why would God allow intercessory prayer by Christians on earth but prohibit it by Christians in heaven?" It's only you 17TH century born Protestants who disapprove of this.