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Carrier: On the Historicity of Jesus, a community discussion

Athée

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I disagree with him, of course. On a personal level it's because I've been a Christian for years and have seen the name of Jesus do wonderful things in my life and in the lives of others. Outside of that, my understanding is that he's such an outlier in his field that I won't take his idea seriously until other historians jump on the bandwagon.
Thanks for chiming in :)
I agree with you that it is wise to question a hypothesis that falls outside the scholaly consensus. I will point out the OTHJ does appear in a relevant and respected journal that subjects it's entiries to peer review. While this does not mean that Carrier is correct it does, in my opinion, make it worthy of discussion. I personally would like to make that evaluation by looking into the book itself.
Hopefully you will stick around on the thread (and read the book) and join us for the discussions on the historicity of Jesus.
 
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civilwarbuff

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This is from the SoP of Christian Apologetics:
As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue.
What part of the above do you not understand? And if you understand it why have you not offered your argument instead of your adulation of the author?
And sorry you do not understand the irony of the "charity" comments...
 
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redleghunter

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I've been through his book once, and there's just too much content to not read again at some point. His scholarship on the subject is the best I've ever seen in regard to the Jesus figure.

What was most poignant for me, was the absolute lack of contemporary and credible evidence for a literal, historical, Jesus character. And that using accepted, literary, and historical scholarship methods, a great case can be made for the acceptance of Jesus as mythotypal.

The vast majority of historical evidence from antiquity resides in the manuscript evidence.

Unfortunately for Carrier he would have to apply the same myth hypothesis to Alexander and Julius Caesar.

The NT manuscript evidence eclipses every other historical account in antiquity.

Add to that the short period of time from autographs and Carrier is in a position to deny all history he teaches and lectures on.

Here are some comparisons of the manuscript evidence :

http://www.debate.org.uk/debate-top...and-the-quran/the-bibles-manuscript-evidence/

https://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

Add to the above the testimony of the late 1st century AD, 2nd century AD church fathers and by their writings most of the NT is quoted either in apologetics, homilies and theological works.

I believe Carrier dismisses the church fathers because they were Christian.

I wonder if he realizes every piece of manuscript evidence we have today from western antiquity was preserved in Catholic monasteries and if not for the discipline of the monastics we would not have the works of Pliny, Homer, Plato and many more from antiquity.
 
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ChetSinger

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Thanks for chiming in :)
I agree with you that it is wise to question a hypothesis that falls outside the scholaly consensus. I will point out the OTHJ does appear in a relevant and respected journal that subjects it's entiries to peer review. While this does not mean that Carrier is correct it does, in my opinion, make it worthy of discussion. I personally would like to make that evaluation by looking into the book itself.
Hopefully you will stick around on the thread (and read the book) and join us for the discussions on the historicity of Jesus.
I'm not going to take the time to read the book. But if there are particular arguments in it that you believe are convincing I'll try to respond if I have something relevant to add.
 
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Athée

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I'll never take the ideas of Carrier seriously. I prefer the Good News.
Welcome aboard. While I respect your position, I am not sure that a personal preference helps us towards determining if OTHJ makes a good case or not. Of there are elements in Carrier's book that you feel justify "not taking him ssriaously" I would welcome those as discussion points :)
 
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Athée

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I'm not going to take the time to read the book. But if there are particular arguments in it that you believe are convincing I'll try to respond if I have something relevant to add.
Sounds good. Hopefully at some point we will get around to addressing the actual arguments Carrier makes! :)
 
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redleghunter

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I absolutely agree about the amount of material and in truth I didn't even bother to read and check through the math at the end, nor did I follow up on all his citations.
I think I might have different feelings about the evidence and lack thereof but I was surprised by how little there is for a historical Jesus. I don't know why I find it surprising, perhaps because of the massive amount of discussions and debate that surrounds Jesus today... But there is very little that makes the case only for a historical Jesus, that can not also be show to be compatible with a mythicist position.

Now that you read Carrier may I suggest you examine the evidence of the early church theologians and historians. Frankly they were very close to the timeframe of the ministry and acts of the apostles.

@Root of Jesse teaches such subjects in the Catholic church. I'm sure he has the best links or a bibliography for you.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Frankly Carrier is a genius and one of the foremost experts in western antiquity.

Like all people he has a blind spot and bias.
If he is a genius it is limited.....very limited.....
 
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anonymous person

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When discussing the historicity of Jesus there seem to be three main camps. In one, believers assert that Jesus existed as a historical figure and was indeed the divine son of God. In another agnostics or atheists claim that Jesus existed in history as a man but was not in fact divine. Then we have the myth hypothesis, where the claim is that Jesus never existed as a historical person at all.

My interest in this thread is the latter, specifically I would like to discuss the relative merits of On the Historicity of Jesus, by Dr. Richard Carrier. To the best of my knowledge no peer reviewed response (that is no critical response), has appeared anywhere in any journal. Yet given that Carrier's OTHJ was published in a relevant peer reviewed journal it seems to me that at the very least it merits discussion.

I myself have read through the book once (I think it would take a few readings to really be comfortable with all the information packed in this long long book) and found it to be compelling, although perhaps not conclusive. To be fair though, I am an atheist and I recognize that I really want Carrier to be right. I have a bias to agree with him because it would validate my lack of belief if it turns out Jesus was not historical but a myth. To this end I would love to talk through Carrier's work with believers, assuming that you don't agree with Carrier! I have heard a number of claims about the lack of reliable scholarship in the book but no one has ever given me a specific example. Regardless of your reasons for agreeing with or disagreeing with Carrier, I would welcome the discussion. I anticipate that any discussion on this topic will lead us down the rabbit trails of early sources and writings which is fine as long as the intent is always to relate them to OTHJ and to eventually return to that focus.

What do you make of OTHJ, do you agree with Carrier, why or why not?

Thanks

You seem to be very respectful and sincere. It is very nice to see someone who can talk and carry on a conversation and state their views clearly and concisely. Welcome here we are glad you decided to take the time to write what you have. Before I address the specific book in question, I wanted to ask you about the part where you said you wanted Carrier to be right and that you have a bias to agree with him because it would validate your lack of belief.

Why do you want your lack of belief validated?
 
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redleghunter

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Carrier simply takes a look at the evidence, and then applies scholarly methods to it. Not much cultish at all.

He excludes exculpatory evidence.

Did his book examine the church fathers? I ask because he never mentions their testimony on his blogs.

Did Carrier address the manuscript evidence for the NT? Saw no mention on his blog other than "so what,"
 
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civilwarbuff

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Sounds good. Hopefully at some point we will get around to addressing the actual arguments Carrier makes! :)
At some point you may actually make a statement of argument which is what the forum guidelines require.....and you so far have ignored....
 
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Athée

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You seem to be very respectful and sincere. It is very nice to see someone who can talk and carry on a conversation and state their views clearly and concisely. Welcome here we are glad you decided to take the time to write what you have. Before I address the specific book in question, I wanted to ask you about the part where you said you wanted Carrier to be right and that you have a bias to agree with him because it would validate your lack of belief.

Why do you want your lack of belief validated?
I think we all like to be right :) I was simply making it clear that my bias is going to colour my take on Carrier's work and so I am asking peolle who disagree to help me investigate the subject more honestly. Maybe our opposing biases will cancel each other out!
 
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redleghunter

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It would seem that this position is not incredibly helpful on a thread specifically dedicated to discussing Carrier's book. If you haven't read Carrier's book, then your criticism must be intended for other mythicist works. It might surprise you to learn that in Carrier's OTHJ he specifically calls mythicist authors to take for making sloppy, poorly researched attempts to defend the theory. His book is very intentionally not written in that vein. However, if you never intend to read it or engage with the argument as it appears in a relevant and reputable peer reviewed journal, this is certainly your prerogative. I invite you to lurk around the thread and hopefully you will engage with the ideas in it :)

Another recommendation in you studies is Harvard Law professor Simon Greenleaf. Older book but he approaches the Gospel accounts from a lawyers perspective. The book is free and online :

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/greenleaf.html

Did Carrier mention Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay who took the Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostle, went on expedition to prove Luke was a fraud but through excavation confirmed many previously disputed historical claims?

Let me know if William Ramsay is in Carriers book.

Ramsay has his works on line and are free too:

https://archive.org/details/bearingofrecentd00ramsuoft
 
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Winken

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Welcome aboard. While I respect your position, I am not sure that a personal preference helps us towards determining if OTHJ makes a good case or not. Of there are elements in Carrier's book that you feel justify "not taking him ssriaously" I would welcome those as discussion points :)

"personal preference?" How could any Christian support a "personal preference" in addressing God-ordained Scripture? Carrier's book justifies not taking him seriously. He ranks right up there with Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, and others in the Psychologische Mittwochs-Gesellschaft, a waste of their time and ours. Attacks on Christianity are having a field-day today, but Sunday's coming.
 
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Athée

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Unfortunately for Carrier he would have to apply the same myth hypothesis to Alexander and Julius Caesar.
He does address Alexander in his book and a search of line for Richard carrier evidence Caesar led me to some of his thoughts on that subject.
On Alexander pages 20-23 OHJ

Unlike Jesus, we have over half a dozen relatively objective historians discussing the history of Alexander the Great (most notably Diodorus, Dionysius, Rufus, Trogus, Plutarch and more)...
Lest one complain that these historians wrote 'too late', this is actually of minor significance because, unlike Jesus, they still had contemporary and eyewitness sources to work from. In fact, our best historian of Alexan der is Arrian, who though he wrote five hundred years later, nevertheless employed an explicit method of using only three eyewitness sources (two of them actual generals of Alexander who wrote accounts of their adven tures with him). He names and identifies these sources, explains how he used them to generate a more reliable account, and discusses their relative merits. That alone is quite a great deal more than we have for esus, for whom we have not a single named eyewitness source in any of the accounts of him, much less a discussion of how those sources were used or what their relative merits were. Not even for the anonymous witness claimed to have been used by the authors of the Gospel of John, which claim isn't even cred ible to begin with (that source is almost certainly fabricated, as I'll show in Chapter 10, §7), but in any case we're not told who he was, why we should trust him or what all exactly derives from him. And that's not aiL We have mentions of Alexander the Great and details about him in several contemporary or eyewitness sources still extant, including the speeches of !socrates and Demosthenes and Aeschines and Hyperides and Dinarchus, the poetry of Theocritus, the scientific works of Theophrastus and the plays of Menander. We have not a single contempo rary mention of Jesus-apart from, at best, the letters of Paul, who never even knew him, and says next to nothing about him (as a historical man), or the dubious letters of certain alleged disciples (and I say alleged because apart from known forgeries, none ever say they were his disciples), and (again apart from those forgeries) none ever distinctly place Jesus in history (see Chapters 7 and 11). The eyewitness and contemporary attestation for Alexander is thus vastly better than we have for Jesus, not the other way around. And that's even if we count only extant texts-if we count extant quotations of lost texts in other extant texts, we have literally hundreds of quotations of contemporaries and eyewitnesses that survive in later works attesting to Alexander and his history. We have not even one such for Jesus (e.g. even Paul never once quotes anyone he identifies as an eyewitness or contemporary source for any of his information on Jesus).

And even that is not all. For Alexander we have contemporary inscrip tions and coins, sculpture (originals or copies of originals done from life), as well as other archaeological verifications of historical claims about him. For example, we can verify the claim that Alexander attached Tyre to the mainland with rubble from Ushu-because that rubble is still there and dates to his time; the city of Alexandria named for him dates from his time...
There is more but I don't have Carrier's permission to cite long sections of his book so I had better stop.

The NT manuscript evidence eclipses every other historical account in antiquity.
This is absolutely true but the number of manuscripts does not in any way tell us about the veracity or the quote of the original from which they were derived.
 
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