LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?

[Jane_Doe]

Mormonism teaches that no murderer, apostate from Mormonism, or adulterer, however humbly and truly penitent, will ever enter the rest of God in heaven. They are instantly sent to what mormonism refers to as "outer darkness", where God is not present, i.e., the state of being completely without any member of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), being forever cut off from their presence. (An LDS-held belief. I'm not sure if its shared among all mormonism-based churches.) The belief is based upon a vision Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon had in 1832 [while re-translating John 5:29].

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come" (Josehp Smith, LDS Doctrine & Covenants 42:18).

Adultery (LDS Doctrine & Covenants 132:39) is not quite as clear-cut, especially if compounded by murder like with King David (who mormonism says will suffer for eternity, but not in outer darkness, being left forever repenting.)

This belief presents many problems among non-mormon believers. To us, where would be a place where God is not, considering He created everything? That alone is one for the curiosity books.

(Apologies for failing to always capitalize Mormonism. I type really fast. It's a wonder there's even punctuation)

Tickingclocker, why won't you let a Mormon says what a Mormon believes?

 

[fatboys]

Mormonism teaches that no murderer, apostate from Mormonism, or adulterer, however humbly and truly penitent, will ever enter the rest of God in heaven. They are instantly sent to what mormonism refers to as "outer darkness", where God is not present, i.e., the state of being completely without any member of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), being forever cut off from their presence. (An LDS-held belief. I'm not sure if its shared among all mormonism-based churches.) The belief is based upon a vision Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon had in 1832 [while re-translating John 5:29].

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come" (Josehp Smith, LDS Doctrine & Covenants 42:18).

Adultery (LDS Doctrine & Covenants 132:39) is not quite as clear-cut, especially if compounded by murder like with King David (who mormonism says will suffer for eternity, but not in outer darkness, being left forever repenting.)

This belief presents many problems among non-mormon believers. To us, where would be a place where God is not, considering He created everything? That alone is one for the curiosity books.

(Apologies for failing to always capitalize Mormonism. I type really fast. It's a wonder there's even punctuation)

Your wrong. The only ones that qualify for outer darkness are those who blasphem against the Holy Ghost.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Mormonism teaches that no murderer, apostate from Mormonism, or adulterer, however humbly and truly penitent, will ever enter the rest of God in heaven. They are instantly sent to what mormonism refers to as "outer darkness", where God is not present, i.e., the state of being completely without any member of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), being forever cut off from their presence. (An LDS-held belief. I'm not sure if its shared among all mormonism-based churches.) The belief is based upon a vision Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon had in 1832 [while re-translating John 5:29].

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come" (Josehp Smith, LDS Doctrine & Covenants 42:18).

Adultery (LDS Doctrine & Covenants 132:39) is not quite as clear-cut, especially if compounded by murder like with King David (who mormonism says will suffer for eternity, but not in outer darkness, being left forever repenting.)

This belief presents many problems among non-mormon believers. To us, where would be a place where God is not, considering He created everything? That alone is one for the curiosity books.

(Apologies for failing to always capitalize Mormonism. I type really fast. It's a wonder there's even punctuation)

Your answer is also incorrect. Read my post number 177 to see actual Mormon beliefs.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Part 5 of Explaining Mormon view of Salvation--- The Final Judgment and Glory for Non-Mormons.

God is infinitely just and fair. It would be unfair of God to sentence someone to Hell simply because they never had the opportunity to hear about Christ in this life.

Mormons believe that people who never accepted Christ in this life will have the opportunity to hear about Him after death, but before the Final Judgment (obviously they are spirits during this time). They will have the opportunity to learn, and to accept or reject Him.

Hypothetically, what if this person rejects Christ? They go the third degree of glory I described in post #177.

Hypothetically, what if this person accepts Christ? Fantastic! They have the opportunity to have Christ stand as their advocate on Judgment day, their sins to be washed away, and all the wondrous things that come from being a disciple of Christ. There is one issue though: Christ commanded all men to be baptized, and you cannot baptize a spirit. Is this person just “out of luck”? No, that’s where baptism for the dead comes in.

Baptisms for the dead: you cannot baptize a spirit, these people’s baptisms are performed via proxy, meaning a living person may be baptized in behalf of a deceased person. The spirit of the deceased person may decide whether or not they wish to accept this. If the spirit does not want it, then it does nothing.

***
Addressing a few common myths about Mormon baptisms for the dead—
1) No, there is no grave digging up or anything gross like that.
2) No, it is not believe that this “makes the person Mormon” by any stretch of the imagination.
3) No, baptisms for the dead are not added to Mormon church rolls.

***
Addressing the “but that’s so rude and presumptuous of you to do that” strain of thought—

Let’s take the hypothetical situation and say that Mormons beliefs are correct (just humor me for a minute here)—these proxy baptisms are a great act of charity and love for the person they are done for, enabling their souls to dwell with highest degree of glory for eternity.

Let’s take the hypothetical situation and say that Mormons beliefs are totally bogus— these rituals do absolutely nothing, and no matter how well meaning, they are a complete waste of time. Hey, at least it keeps Mormons to busy to knock on your door .

***
Links about baptisms for the dead, including references--
Super short and basic: https://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/baptism/question/baptism-for-the-dead
Longer with references: https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng

***
Now, onto talking about non-Mormon Christians—

You’ve accepted Christ as your savior and do your best to walk in His ways? That’s absolutely great! Just off that alone, you’re likely to be at least in the second degree of glory I listed earlier (post #177). You get to live on for eternity, hanging out with Christ, single, and blissfully happy.

Is there a chance of such a person being able reach the first degree of glory listed (post 177)? Yes, everyone gets the chance. These people will also have the opportunity to hear Christ’s Full Gospel (which Mormons believe we have) , and add that truth to the truth they already have. They too will also have the opportunity to accept a proxy baptism done on their behalf, and to dwell with all of God in the highest glory.

**
Ok, I think that tentatively covers things. Any questions?

 

[Jane_Doe]

so if Mormon still believe other Christians are Christians

then why do I hear Mormon preaches only Mormons would get to go to Mormon heaven?

and that is why Mormon parents disown their children who becomes Evangelicals?

thanks for your reply

I just read your part 1

so Mormon believe anyone and everyone will be resurrected in the second coming from the physical death

and those who are not Mormons or possibly Christians will die a spiritual death?

Is this right? If so, i cant understand that as even Jesus said we have to believe in him etc?

See post #185. I think it covers your questions.

 

[Goatee]

God is infinitely just and fair. It would be unfair of God to sentence someone to Hell simply because they never had the opportunity to hear about Christ in this life.

Mormons believe that people who never accepted Christ in this life will have the opportunity to hear about Him after death, but before the Final Judgment (obviously they are spirits during this time). They will have the opportunity to learn, and to accept or reject Him.

I think that God could very well do this as there are probably many people who have not heard of Christ and as God is a loving God i would like to believe that he does indeed have a nice plan for them too!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think that God could very well do this as there are probably many people who have not heard of Christ and as God is a loving God i would like to believe that he does indeed have a nice plan for them too!

What is a nice thought does not mean it is what God will do. God is very clear in the Bible about how sin is handled and who God is. We cannot create our own version of God, because God does not change and is who He is.

 

[tickingclocker]

Does anyone care that Mormons do NOT think other Christians are Hellbound sinners? But rather othe Christians are viewed genuine disciples of Christ following the Lord the best they know how, with a very real possibility of being with Him in the eternities?

God is in charge of judgment, no one else. Obviously God has His own purposes for mormonism continuing, or it would have been stamped out like so many other religious sects. That's not to say He hasn't allowed it to serve as a spiritual warning to the elect either. You never know. He also just might be keeping it going to teach lessons about morality to so many morally-waning modern churches. Good behavior does bring its own rewards. Personally I believe TV televangelists have just as much of a message to share with the church as anything or anyone else. They almost all preach on the believer accessing the power of God. Well, what's wrong with that if the intent is to glorify God? If only the church would trust God for bigger things, even just a bit (including the LDS as well)! Unfortunately they add so much useless garbage to that message (name it and claim it, thinking to command God like some lackey) while always crying for money, it may be muddying the waters God could use to heal so many! Shouldn't we all take what we can spiritually use and leave the rest? There are mormons who have spiritually benefited from the influence of non-mormon believers, as well as Christian believers spiritually benefiting from mormons. Isn't goodness just that? The Lord used offal like the movie The Last Temptation of Christ to wake people up to seeking out who Jesus Christ truly is. In other words God Himself determines the vehicles for His glory. No one has the right to limit Him.

We all grope about in this darkness called life on earth, with the occasional glimmer of light bestowed from on High. That being said, rest in the fact that God doesn't have to inform us of why He is allowing.... anything. I realize on one has asked me for my opinion, so apologize for offering it if it offends. Call me an eternal optimist, but even I must get used to the fact that God alone is God.

 

[Goatee]

What is a nice thought does not mean it is what God will do. God is very clear in the Bible about how sin is handled and who God is. We cannot create our own version of God, because God does not change and is who He is.

But, nobody knows what God will do with those who have not heard of Christ when they die?

I often also think that has the Church of Christ developed into the church he wanted? Has it come on the right path? Was it influenced into the wrong direction after the Apostles passed away?

In the Catholic church we have 'Tradition' handed down from those first days and of which we are told that the Holy Spirit guides. What if things have been adopted wrongly? What if, we are not being guided by the Holy Spirit as we are on the wrong 'Train!'

I often pray and ask God to guide me. To help me understand what he wants from me and that i am on the right path to him.

I am not saying that the Mormon church is the True church either. As i get older i am questioning things more but still have my full faith in God. My love of Jesus is eternal.

More study is needed by me anyway. I do read scripture daily but its one thing to read it and another to understand and interpret it correctly!

 

[tickingclocker]

Your wrong. The only ones that qualify for outer darkness are those who blasphem against the Holy Ghost.

Actually, that's not quite true. Apostates from the LDS church qualify, despite their ongoing faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. It's belief in the LDS they choose to reject, not God. You know that. So that doesn't make them apostates, which means someone who rejects belief in God. Your own founder, Joseph Smith, clearly stated that no murderer would enter heaven. Can you prove me wrong about anything I mentioned? These beliefs are common knowledge in and outside the LDS. Both are counted as the sons of perdition, along with Satan and his demons. True, other LDS presidents (Kimball for one) have since slightly modified what Joseph Smith once claimed, to now allow murderers, under very specific conditions, into the terrestrial or lower heaven in mormonism. I can give you the references from your own church's website for them if you like. Just can't do it right now. Have to go do some mom things shortly. Can't believe I've been on here for so long! Really eats up valuable time! Hopefully I will be able to check back tomorrow or Wed. for your reply.

And considering that I'm the one who wrote the information, I would be the one who would respond, correct?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Baptisms for the dead: you cannot baptize a spirit, these people’s baptisms are performed via proxy, meaning a living person may be baptized in behalf of a deceased person. The spirit of the deceased person may decide whether or not they wish to accept this. If the spirit does not want it, then it does nothing.

***
Addressing a few common myths about Mormon baptisms for the dead—
1) No, there is no grave digging up or anything gross like that.
2) No, it is not believe that this “makes the person Mormon” by any stretch of the imagination.
3) No, baptisms for the dead are not added to Mormon church rolls.

***
Addressing the “but that’s so rude and presumptuous of you to do that” strain of thought—

Let’s take the hypothetical situation and say that Mormons beliefs are correct (just humor me for a minute here)—these proxy baptisms are a great act of charity and love for the person they are done for, enabling their souls to dwell with highest degree of glory for eternity.

Let’s take the hypothetical situation and say that Mormons beliefs are totally bogus— these rituals do absolutely nothing, and no matter how well meaning, they are a complete waste of time. Hey, at least it keeps Mormons to busy to knock on your door .

I will have to be in and out for parts of this afternoon, so my posts may be a while in between.

I do not believe that there is anything in the Bible that shows God would accept any proxy baptism. Baptism is more of a public proclamation of your faith and showing a newness of self that we have entered a sinner and come out clean, clean from sin.

In Jewish and Hebrew custom baths and cleansing rituals with water were used when entering sacred places and for prayer.

Unless someone can show me somewhere in the BIble that allows for proxy baptism I do not believe that it suffices as baptism.

Another point is that these baptism's are done by people who use the authority of the Aaronic and Melchezedek priesthoods which I do not believe they in anyway have a right too.

I do agree that at least it keeps Mormons from knocking on our door

 

[Jane_Doe]

I will have to be in and out for parts of this afternoon, so my posts may be a while in between.

That's ok, probably better for my work productivity

I do not believe that there is anything in the Bible that shows God would accept any proxy baptism. Baptism is more of a public proclamation of your faith and showing a newness of self that we have entered a sinner and come out clean, clean from sin.

The meaning/purpose of baptism is one of those essential doctrines which very across different Christian groups, for example Catholics view differently than what you posted here and what Mormons believe. Here's good short explanation about Mormon beliefs on baptism (https://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/baptism).

Unless someone can show me somewhere in the BIble that allows for proxy baptism I do not believe that it suffices as baptism.

No one's asking you to believe, I'm just explaining what I believe. The one NT reference to baptisms for the dead is 1 Corinthians 15:29, though rather cryptic. Much of Part 5 comes from other books Mormons regard as scripture, which of course you're free to disbelieve.

Curiosity: do you believe baptism is essential for salvation?

I do agree that at least it keeps Mormons from knocking on our door

YES! My mission to make TBL smile has succeeded!

 

[Goatee]

Good explanation for me:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mormonisms-baptism-for-the-dead

 

[Jane_Doe]

Good explanation for me:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mormonisms-baptism-for-the-dead

If you want the Catholic perspective on Mormon beliefs, yes. Personally to understand another person's beliefs, I'm a fan of asking Catholic about Catholics beliefs, and Mormons about Mormon beliefs.

Edit-- Jane realizes in Part 5 she didn't attach the Mormon links on Mormon baptism for the dead! Ooopps... I'll fix that now.
Super short and basic: https://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/baptism/question/baptism-for-the-dead
Longer with references: https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng

 

[Goatee]

If you want the Catholic perspective on Mormon beliefs, yes. Personally to understand another person's beliefs, I'm a fan of asking Catholic about Catholics beliefs, and Mormons about Mormon beliefs.

Edit-- Jane realizes in Part 5 she didn't attach the Mormon links on Mormon baptism for the dead! Ooopps... I'll fix that now.
Super short and basic: https://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/baptism/question/baptism-for-the-dead
Longer with references: https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng

Yes, obviously each denomination is going to say that they are right! lol

I am flexible but also not easily pushed around regarding my faith. I may have tons of questions about my own denominations but it would take a lot for me to actually leave the Catholic Church as i do see it as the 'Original' church of Christ, unless God tells me otherwise!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, obviously each denomination is going to say that they are right! lol

I am flexible but also not easily pushed around regarding my faith. I may have tons of questions about my own denominations but it would take a lot for me to actually leave the Catholic Church as i do see it as the 'Original' church of Christ, unless God tells me otherwise!

 

[Goatee]

Have you always been a Mormon?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Have you always been a Mormon?

Yep, though admittedly I took a break for a couple years.

I have a great appreciation for other faiths as well. I love visiting other churches, been to events at Methodist, Episcopalian, and non-denom in 2016 thus far. I just completed the last 12 months studying Catholicism, and now going to Hinduism.

 

[Ironhold]

and (losing voting rights and ownership) under President Snow and pressure from the government,

Might want to go look things up again.

The government was in the process of removing all civil rights from Mormons, and individuals within the government were pushing for us to lose all of our human rights as well.

That's right: the government was looking to feed us to the lions.

 

[Ironhold]

Jane Doe, I have a simple little question for you:
Why do you refuse to respond to my posts. Is it because that you regard me an apostate?

ever figure that maybe some of us are busy IRL?