Abortion Discussion

[Julie.S]

That is what I thought...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
http://faculty.babson.edu/krollag/org_site/soc_psych/milgram_exper.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
These studies are classic especially since they could not be repeated with today's ethical standards in place. So, are you willing to dismiss them simply because they are done in the 60's & 70's or are these still viable studies whose results are still valid?

Those are fine and Learned Helplessness is actually something I know a bit about. I am talking about the current theme of abortion and the like. Like I said before these studies are fine and can be used but having ones that are more recent to back them up is good.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Glad I made you laugh. I suppose you think that vague "starts out" is some sort of argument? We are all constructed (from an invisible to the naked eye sperm and egg) in a womb. That does not mean we exist before we are made.

I went back and edited my post because I misread your statement.....my bad......

 

[redleghunter]

nice post. Is the fact that life is in the blood also why Jews are directed to not eat bloody meat?

Yes and if not mistaken this was left with Noah as well.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Those are fine and Learned Helplessness is actually something I know a bit about. I am talking abou

Glad I made you laugh. I suppose you think that vague "starts out" is some sort of argument? We are all constructed (from an invisible to the naked eye sperm and egg) in a womb. That does not mean we exist before we are made.

There we disagree
Jeremiah 1:5

 

[Julie.S]

There we disagree
Jeremiah 1:5

I don't have a problem with disagreeing its just part of life really.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I don't have a problem with disagreeing its just part of life really.

Sorry Julie.....that was meant for Doug.....

 

[Julie.S]

Sorry Julie.....that was meant for Doug.....

Its alright don't worry about it.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Except it's not a "baby" by any meaningful definition.

Fetus is the Latin word for unborn baby. Regardless of of the name you use, it is human life and we are not authorized to destroy human life.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

This scripture is talking about GOD not holding the sins of the father against the son and visa versa. It has nothing to do with us punishing children at all and I suspect that you know this.

Society lets the rapist live and condemns the innocent unborn baby to death. Is not this equivalent to punishing a child for the sin of the father?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Fetus is the Latin word for unborn baby. Regardless of of the name you use, it is human life and we are not authorized to destroy human life.

Why don't we then start by making war illegal first?

 

[Root of Jesse]

To my knowledge, slaves were not occupying the body of another without permission. Wouldn't you agree that the rape victim/pregnant woman's rights superscede those of the fetus?

No, I believe they're equal. Nobody has more or less rights than anyone else.

Interesting that you raise the issue of slaves. I have asked this before, do you support involuntary servitude in general or only when it is forced upon rape victims?

I actually believe in voluntary servitude. I serve God and His will. At my own choice. The world would be a different place if everyone thought of God first, others next, themselves last. I do lots of things that inconvenience me, for the good of someone else. Even a rape victim can see that the fetus inside her deserves a chance at life. Parents make all sorts of sacrifices, some of them unwilling, for the sake of their children.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well said.....

 

[redleghunter]

Why don't we then start by making war illegal first?

I would love for that to happen.

Make love not war!

 

[redleghunter]

No, I believe they're equal. Nobody has more or less rights than anyone else.

I actually believe in voluntary servitude. I serve God and His will. At my own choice. The world would be a different place if everyone thought of God first, others next, themselves last. I do lots of things that inconvenience me, for the good of someone else. Even a rape victim can see that the fetus inside her deserves a chance at life. Parents make all sorts of sacrifices, some of them unwilling, for the sake of their children.

Indeed. Sage words.

 

[Cearbhall]

Fetus is the Latin word for unborn baby. Regardless of of the name you use, it is human life and we are not authorized to destroy human life.

You can say that, but it's just words, and I happen to disagree.

Society lets the rapist live and condemns the innocent unborn baby to death.

Really? We're forcing women to get abortions now based on the means of conception?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Sorry Julie.....that was meant for Doug.....

You think we exist before we are made?

 

[civilwarbuff]

You think we exist before we are made?

No, not me.....God
Jeremiah 1:5

 

[BiblicalAstronomy]

Miscarry is nowhere in the text you quote. In fact Exodus 21:21ff is a basis for fetal homicide laws:

The scholars who used miscarriage or still birth are clearly in error. They form a very small minority and have engaged in eisegesis, the method of interpreting scriptures with a bias.

In order to determine the exact meaning of a word in the Bible you need a literal word for word translation and look back at the Hebrew for Exodus 21. Those trying to use miscarriage or still born are likely using a dynamic equivalent or paraphrase translation and not a literal word for word translation.


The majority of scholars who ascribe to the Hebrew and Greek lexicon.

Here is the passage in question.

Exodus 21: King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Now another word for word literal translation from a modern English version.

Exodus 21: NASB


"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Exodus 21:22-25 NASB
http://bible.com/100/exo.21.22-25.NASB


Now we take a look at the Hebrew lexicon.



If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

So that her fruit:

Hebrew: יֶלֶד yeled

he KJV translates Strongs H3206 in the following manner:child (72x), young man (7x), young ones (3x), sons (3x), boy (2x), fruit (1x), variant (1x).


child, son, boy, offspring, youth

1. child, son, boy
   
   
2. child, children
   
   
3. descendants
   
   
4. youth

Yeled is not not miscarriage nor still birth, it's a live child.

Is there a Hebrew word for miscarriage and stillborn? Yes and it is not Yeled.

Exodus 23: KJV


26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.

The above now in the Hebrew lexicon:
שָׁכֹל shakol


The KJV translates Strongs H7921 in the following manner:bereave (10x),barren (2x), childless (2x), cast young (2x), cast a calf (1x), lost children (1x),rob of children (1x), deprived (1x), misc (5x).


שָׁכֹלshâkôl, shaw-kole'; a primitive root; properly, to miscarry, i.e. suffer abortion; by analogy, to bereave (literally or figuratively):—bereave (of children), barren, cast calf (fruit, young), be (make) childless, deprive, destroy, × expect, lose children, miscarry, rob of children, spoil.


So we can see shakol is not used in Exodus 21:22ff.

Yaled is alive; shakol is miscarriage.


On the 'breath of life' comment? We know from Leviticus 17 God sees the life is in the blood.

More:

Abortion: Biblical exegesis of Exodus 21:22ff

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...arding-abortion.7926139/page-28#post-69098322
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...r-for-the-babies.7922364/page-3#post-68987259
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-abortion-is-immoral.7923648/page-34#post-69060024
Abortion: The Mind of God on our humanity; How TaNaKh Jews viewed conception

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-abortion-is-immoral.7923648/page-42#post-69090685

Is abortion Ethical for seculars:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/it-should-be-murder.7925104/page-33#post-69118203

Bitter water explained:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/pro-life-or-pro-choice.7934246/page-98#post-69342499

Kill and Murder:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...rs-of-euthanasia.7936568/page-7#post-69372766

Good work on Exodus, but regarding the "life of the flesh being in the Blood"-The Rest of the Medical Equation cannot be ignored, because its the Blood the carries the life-giving 02 to the cells of our bodies... and the fact remains that the fetus does not breathe on its own power in the womb, only when it is born and starts breathing on its own power does it become a living soul.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Good work on Exodus, but regarding the "life of the flesh being in the Blood"-The Rest of the Medical Equation cannot be ignored, because its the Blood the carries the life-giving 02 to the cells of our bodies... and the fact remains that the fetus does not breathe on its own power in the womb, only when it is born and starts breathing on its own power does it become a living soul.

So, God says life is in the blood but you say it is because of breathing......and we should believe your version for what reason?

 

[redleghunter]

Good work on Exodus, but regarding the "life of the flesh being in the Blood"-The Rest of the Medical Equation cannot be ignored, because its the Blood the carries the life-giving 02 to the cells of our bodies... and the fact remains that the fetus does not breathe on its own power in the womb, only when it is born and starts breathing on its own power does it become a living soul.

Only if we were all created directly from the dust of the earth. Adam was the first made from original ingredients.