Abortion Discussion

[St_Worm2]

And another, to which I have linked previously finds that over 95% of women who have procured abortions do NOT regret their decision!

How strange that we never hear you people quoting those numbers!

Hi Steve, your study appears to be flawed!

Go here to see the review that belies the conclusions drawn by the study you've referred us to.

You will also discover that your study's "claim of declining regret and declining negative reactions to abortion is also at odds with Brenda Major’s two year longitudinal study .. that found that there was a trend of decline in relief and increase in negative emotions over the two year period." See Major B, et al. Psychological responses of women after first-trimester abortion. Archives of General Psychiatry. 2000: 57(8), 777-84.

I will agree with you about this though, we are a desperate lot, desperate to see an end to the genocide that has taken 58,000,000+ lives to date in the United States alone.

It's interesting to note that you characterize Pro-Lifers as having "selfish" desires. I'm not sure what "selfish desires" you could possibly be referring to in this case, but it seems to me that someone who chooses to take the life of their own child for the sake of convenience is the very definition of "selfish".

Yours and His,
David

 

[Dave-W]

By the same token, what person wants to be a slave?

Ex 21.4 If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself.
5 But if the servant plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’
6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

 

[Archivist]

In your view what's the difference between a woman seeking an abortion due to rape and a woman who seeks an abortion for convenience? In both cases a woman can cite being held captive. How do you address the liberty in the one case compared to the other? I'm asking because you are taking the liberty argument.

Please address my post first. Why should a rape victim be forced into nine months of involuntary servitude to carry a fetus that was produced against her will to term? Why should she be forced to deal with all the complications of pregnancy up to and including possible death to deliver the product of a violent act? Do you support slavery in all cases or just in cases involving rape victims?

 

[SteveB28]

Hi Steve, your study appears to be flawed!

Go here to see the review that belies the conclusions drawn by the study you've referred us to.

You want me to take seriously a publication which screams loudly at the top of the page...

"Caught on tape - Planned Parenthood trafficking in body parts!"

I think I'll pass on that one!

You will also discover that your study's "claim of declining regret and declining negative reactions to abortion is also at odds with Brenda Major’s two year longitudinal study .. that found that there was a trend of decline in relief and increase in negative emotions over the two year period."

How very interesting. This, from YOUR source.......(my underline)

• Major has published a number of studies on abortion with an emphasis on attributing negative psychological effects of abortion with lack of social support and stigma caused by anti-abortion protests. In violation of APA ethics rules on data sharing, however, she has refused to allow other researchers to examine her data despite accusations that she has misrepresented and selectively reported her findings.[4]

I

will agree with you about this though, we are a desperate lot, desperate to see an end to the genocide that has taken 58,000,000+ lives to date in the United States alone.

It's interesting to note that you characterize Pro-Lifers as having "selfish" desires. I'm not sure what "selfish desires" you could possibly be referring to in this case, but it seems to me that someone who chooses to take the life of their own child for the sake of convenience is the very definition of "selfish".

Yours and His,
David

Because, if you were the slightest part honest, you would acknowledge that your primary interest is not the care of women. It is entirely about driving your religiously inspired agenda.

But we've seen the examples of the honesty, haven't we?

 

[Archivist]

There are laws that a Doctor has to provide treatment and medical care to a patient, and there are laws that a mother or caretaker has to provide care and assistance to her young. It would fall in this category. But let's say, for whatever reason, that we are opposed only to using abortion as a form of birth control. Maybe you would then also support the pro-life arguments because at this point it was a choice to become pregnant. Thus, your argument seems incomplete.

But I am limiting my discussion to cases involving rape victims. Apparently this is an uncomfortable area for those who oppose abortion.

 

[St_Worm2]

You're right Steve, my "primary interest" is in saving lives. 99+% of the women who have abortions are not in danger of losing their lives because of their unborn child, but 100% of these same mothers' unborn children will lose their lives if they are successfully aborted.

Abortion rarely saves the life of the mother (far less than 1% of abortions are performed because of a health risk to the mother), but a successful abortion ALWAYS destroys the life of an unborn child.

 

[Archivist]

Thankyou for your opinion which is duly noted and filed in the round filing basket.

Thus is the response you get when someone cannot address what you said.

 

[Uncle Siggy]

You're right Steve, my "primary interest" is in saving lives. 99+% of the women who have abortions are not in danger of losing their lives because of their unborn child, but 100% of these same mothers' unborn children will lose their lives if they are successfully aborted.

Abortion rarely saves the life of the mother (far less than 1% of abortions are performed because of a health risk to the mother), but a successful abortion ALWAYS destroys the life of an unborn child.

http://www.lifenews.com/2009/11/03/int-1371/

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/studentsforlife/cost.html

 

[Julie.S]

http://www.lifenews.com/2009/11/03/int-1371/

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/studentsforlife/cost.html

I feel that the sources here may be one sided and that's not good for an argument really from what I have learned at least when presenting a case.

 

[Verv]

But I am limiting my discussion to cases involving rape victims. Apparently this is an uncomfortable area for those who oppose abortion.

I still believe that abortion should not occur in this case because I believe that, while rape is a terrible crime, because it is a human life inside of the woman we cannot abort it. Of course, the woman has no further obligation than to bring the child to term.

Do you think it is hypocritical if a person supports abortion in rape only cases?

 

[KCfromNC]

What matters isn't how secular courts or legal systems view it.

It is if you're going to claim it is murder - that is, the illegal types of killing. This is pretty typical behavior, though - make a crazy claim and then run away when asked to back it up. I wish I were more surprised than I am, but I've come to see it as normal. It is one of the many reasons that I find myself supporting the pro-choice side. At least they don't have to make stuff up to make their case.

 

[Julie.S]

I still believe that abortion should not occur in this case because I believe that, while rape is a terrible crime, because it is a human life inside of the woman we cannot abort it. Of course, the woman has no further obligation than to bring the child to term.

Do you think it is hypocritical if a person supports abortion in rape only cases?

Do you know how the situation would be for a woman? Because I am one and that terrifies me to a degree.

 

[Cearbhall]

The scripture says that those who hate God love death and this is well illustrated by the pro-aborts.

Wait, who do you think hates God? People who are members of the Abrahamic religions worship him, and people who aren't don't believe in him. There's no one left.

The mastermind behind abortion is satan, and as he is the father of lies and cannot tell the truth to save his life, it is obvious that everything that emanates out of the pro-abort cartel is going to be lies to hide the truth. Like satan, they cannot handle the truth.

That's an interesting thought. Do you believe he has been the inspiration for abortion for all of human history? Genuinely curious about how this works and to what degree Satan is allegorical in this context.

 

[Archivist]

http://www.lifenews.com/2009/11/03/int-1371/

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/studentsforlife/cost.html

Lifenews.com and Students for Life are not exactly unbiased souirces.

 

[Archivist]

I still believe that abortion should not occur in this case because I believe that, while rape is a terrible crime, because it is a human life inside of the woman we cannot abort it. Of course, the woman has no further obligation than to bring the child to term.

How can you say that the rape victim has an "obligation" to carry the fetus to term? She was assaulted, and did not gave consent to the sexual act. Yet you are saying that she has an "obligation" to carry the fetus to term. This would include weight gain, morning sickness, time off work (perhaps uncompensated) and the pain of child birth. It could also include diabetes, high blood pressure, a c-section and possible death. The rape victim asked for none of this. I think that it is very easy for a man, who will never be in such a position, to say that it is an "obligation" since he will never face a siimiliar obligation.

Do you think it is hypocritical if a person supports abortion in rape only cases?

I know a number of people who support abortion only in cases of rape or incest or where the life or health of the mother is at risk. I don't know of anyone who supports it only in cases of rape.

 

[Archivist]

You're right Steve, my "primary interest" is in saving lives. 99+% of the women who have abortions are not in danger of losing their lives because of their unborn child, but 100% of these same mothers' unborn children will lose their lives if they are successfully aborted. Abortion rarely saves the life of the mother (far less than 1% of abortions are performed because of a health risk to the mother), but a successful abortion ALWAYS destroys the life of an unborn child.

Could you please prodide the source of your figure of "far less than 1%" of abortions being performed becasue the pregnant woman's life or health was at risk? According to FactCheck.org, exact figures are not available but approximztely 600 women die in the US every year because of pregnancy and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists reported that "many more women would die each year if they did not have access to abortion to protect their health or to save their lives." One survey cited by FactCheck.org indicated that 2.8 percent of abortitions were performed to protect the life or health of the pregnant woman. You can find Fact Check's full report here: http://www.factcheck.org/2012/10/the-life-of-the-mother/

 

[AirPo]

How can you say that the rape victim has an "obligation" to carry the fetus to term? She was assaulted, and did not gave consent to the sexual act. Yet you are saying that she has an "obligation" to carry the fetus to term. This would include weight gain, morning sickness, time off work (perhaps uncompensated) and the pain of child birth. It could also include diabetes, high blood pressure, a c-section and possible death. The rape victim asked for none of this. I think that it is very easy for a man, who will never be in such a position, to say that it is an "obligation" since he will never face a siimiliar obligation.

It's like telling a stab victem they have an obligation to bleed.

 

[Cearbhall]

Do you know how the situation would be for a woman? Because I am one and that terrifies me to a degree.

Indeed. I don't want to go through childbirth and pregnancy in the first place. Ever. The prospect of being forced into it by the government because a man decided to rape me makes me want to get a vasectomy. As if I would just roll over and take it.

Fortunately, it's never going to go back to that in the U.S.

And it's mature to think you should be able to kill someone because they inconvenience you by existing?

No, I don't agree with what you've described here because you're speaking far more generally than abortion. Specifically, I don't believe that a human being has an obligation to use his or her own physical body to sustain another human body.

 

[Archivist]

An unborn baby by definition is an unborn baby. Human fetuses (Latin for baby) to human new born babies. One is an unborn baby (fetus in latin) and the other is baby that has been born.

From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

fetus (n.)
late 14c., "the young while in the womb or egg" (tending to mean vaguely the embryo in the later stage of development), from Latin fetus (often, incorrectly,foetus) "the bearing or hatching of young, a bringing forth," from Latin base *fe- "to generate, bear," also "to suck, suckle" (see fecund). In Latin, fetus sometimes was transferred figuratively to the newborn creature itself, or used in a sense of "offspring, brood" (as in Horace's "Germania quos horrida parturit Fetus"), but this was not the basic meaning.

 

[Archivist]

By Law african and native Americans didn't used to be considered citizens, by law in Germany at one point you could be arrested and sent to a death camp for being Jewish, Muslim, Slavic, Romani, or disabled. In certain parts of the world both now and previously it has been illegal to be Christian. Forgive me if I find "the law" a questionable source for making ethical decisions

The church has made its own poor decisions over the years. For example, the persecution of Jews, Anabaptists and Witches by the Roman Catholic Church and by some Protestants. Fortunately the Quakers who founded Pennsylvania where I spent most of my life did not participate in such things. William Penn dismissed the only Pennsylvania witchcraft trial, telling the woman charged that it was not a crime to fly over Philadelphia on a broomstick.