Abortion Discussion

[tiglathpileser]

Yes. An unborn human, by definition, is not a baby.

Human fetuses to human newborns.

Of course not. I'm not suggesting that there's any greater significance to birth than the act of being born. There's no inherent difference between a fetus and a baby other than the fact that one is a fetus (unborn) and one is a baby (born). It's only a matter of semantics.

I'm not the one who thinks that a soul magically comes into existence with a POOF and enters a blastocyst, after all.

An unborn baby by definition is an unborn baby.

Human fetuses (Latin for baby) to human new born babies.

One is an unborn baby (fetus in latin) and the other is baby that has been born.

Many do think that a soul magically come into existence as in one minute you are not a baby and the next minute you are. Mainly the bleating of the pro-aborts who cannot handle the truth.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

I'm a lawyer. What I have said regarding a life in being is correct. A fetus is considered to be a life in being only if it survives until birth.

By Law african and native Americans didn't used to be considered citizens, by law in Germany at one point you could be arrested and sent to a death camp for being Jewish, Muslim, Slavic, Romani, or disabled. In certain parts of the world both now and previously it has been illegal to be Christian.

Forgive me if I find "the law" a questionable source for making ethical decisions

 

[tiglathpileser]

Indeed, but I still prefer to use terms correctly for clarity's sake. Just a personal decision that I find aids discussion when both babies and fetuses are being mentioned.

What, because I know what "fetus" means? Please, try to actually come up with a substantial complaint. There's always room for improvement, so I'd be happy to hear any logical criticism.

And this is your first rodeo, yes? I recommend reading one of the many other discussions on abortion in which I have participated. Preferably ones where people didn't stunt it by complaining over and over about other people using the word "fetus" and we actually got to have a productive discussion.

Well yes, I agree that all of this discussion over two little terms is ridiculous. But I'm not going to back down and say that "fetus" and "baby" are synonymous from a medical perspective and can be used interchangeably in all contexts. That would be intellectually dishonest of me, but it seems I'm wasting my energy. It's funny because I haven't even asked anyone else to use the term "fetus." I've only stated why I do so, but I'll just drop it and continue to use the terms properly.

Your post only goes to show that you can't handle the truth. A fetus and a baby are one and the same thing as the word fetus is latin for BABY. The baby in the womb can be called what it is, a baby, or it can be called a fetus which means that it is a baby. You are splitting hairs as you won't acknowledge that a fetus and a baby are one and the same thing. Probably because you can't handle the truth.

The scripture says that those who hate God love death and this is well illustrated by the pro-aborts. The mastermind behind abortion is satan, and as he is the father of lies and cannot tell the truth to save his life, it is obvious that everything that emanates out of the pro-abort cartel is going to be lies to hide the truth. Like satan, they cannot handle the truth.

The scripture also says that he seeks to kill, steal and destroy. Those three attributes are evident in abortion. The baby is killed; he steals the joy of motherhood from the mother; and he destroys her emotional well being.

 

[Cearbhall]

Except a woman seeking an abortion isn't donating an internal organ. The comparison is fallacious.

She's sustaining a different human using her own body. She is quite literally using her organs every day to keep the fetus alive. That's what pregnancy is. It's the closest comparison to organ donation in existence. I can't think of a third scenario where this has occurred, except for E.T.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

So true and just another red herring invented to add to all the others to avoid facing the truth that every abortion kills a baby. O what a web we weave when we set out to deceive.

Speaking for and of your self.
A great delusion has been foisted upon the earth by those who constantly spout the untruth that a fetus is a baby.
It is about the only "argument" they have.

 

[tiglathpileser]

By Law african and native Americans didn't used to be considered citizens, by law in Germany at one point you could be arrested and sent to a death camp for being Jewish, Muslim, Slavic, Romani, or disabled. In certain parts of the world both now and previously it has been illegal to be Christian.

Forgive me if I find "the law" a questionable source for making ethical decisions

You are right to beg forgiveness for finding the law a questionable source particularly these days as more and more laws are being enacted to destroy life, not protect it. Today, you can be thrown into jail for saying you believe in traditional marriage between a man and a woman. Today, you can be thrown in jail because you stood on the pavement near an abortion centre praying. Today, you can be thrown into jail for complaining about your child's school teaching your child that it is OK to cross dress and call yourself a girl if you are a boy.

One might say "Stop the world I want to get off."

 

[redleghunter]

By Law african and native Americans didn't used to be considered citizens, by law in Germany at one point you could be arrested and sent to a death camp for being Jewish, Muslim, Slavic, Romani, or disabled. In certain parts of the world both now and previously it has been illegal to be Christian.

Forgive me if I find "the law" a questionable source for making ethical decisions

It is good that God's Laws are just.

Mankind has made a mockery of jurisprudence.

 

[Cearbhall]

I must be more intelligent than you because I see very clearly how it is relevant.

Oh lordy, you're one of those...

Precisely and I am glad you now see the light of the subject at hand.

What do you believe I now see?

 

[OrthodoxForever]

You are right to beg forgiveness for finding the law a questionable source particularly these days as more and more laws are being enacted to destroy life, not protect it. Today, you can be thrown into jail for saying you believe in traditional marriage between a man and a woman. Today, you can be thrown in jail because you stood on the pavement near an abortion centre praying. Today, you can be thrown into jail for complaining about your child's school teaching your child that it is OK to cross dress and call yourself a girl if you are a boy.

One might say "Stop the world I want to get off."

Indeed... yet we keep trying to steer the laws of men in a better direction...

 

[tiglathpileser]

Speaking for and of your self.
A great delusion has been foisted upon the earth by those who constantly spout the untruth that a fetus is a baby.
It is about the only "argument" they have.

Fetus is latin for baby. By medical definition a fetus is the unborn offspring of mammals from 8 weeks after conception until birth. Prior to 8 weeks it is called an embryo. It is clear that the word has been adopted from the animal kingdom to hide the fact that every abortion kills a baby.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

Fetus is latin for baby. By medical definition a fetus is the unborn offspring of mammals from 8 weeks after conception until birth. Prior to 8 weeks it is called an embryo. It is clear that the word has been adopted from the animal kingdom to hide the fact that every abortion kills a baby.

Dehumanization, it's how these people manage to live with themselves

 

[redleghunter]

Oh lordy, you're one of those...

What do you believe I now see?

You said without the right to life there is no liberty. I agree and glad you got the order correct. Welcome to the Pro Life movement.

 

[redleghunter]

Dehumanization, it's how these people manage to live with themselves

Or worse...apathy and narcissism.


Matthew 24:

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

 

[Cearbhall]

An unborn baby by definition is an unborn baby.

Human fetuses (Latin for baby) to human new born babies.

One is an unborn baby (fetus in latin) and the other is baby that has been born.

Sure, you could say that. An egg is an unhatched chick, etc. Fair enough.

Mainly the bleating of the pro-aborts who cannot handle the truth.

I'm not a "pro-abort." Even China isn't pro-abortion anymore.

Many do think that a soul magically come into existence as in one minute you are not a baby and the next minute you are.

Not me. I don't believe in souls.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Speaking for and of your self.
A great delusion has been foisted upon the earth by those who constantly spout the untruth that a fetus is a baby.
It is about the only "argument" they have.

Here are a few more arguments that we don't have and which the pro-aborts don't want to know about...

Having the abortion was very traumatic for me. It is against everything I believe in. I didn’t even give myself a chance to recover, I just carried on with my life as if nothing had happened. I feel so guilty about doing this and I cannot get it out of my head. In spite of the baby being this man’s, it was also part of me.

I feel so guilty and depressed. I cannot sleep or eat and I have completely withdrawn from family and friends. I put on a brave face for everyone at work but I don’t think I can cope anymore. I don’t know whether I can ever forgive myself.

Although, our pro-abortion media will not likely give it much coverage, a similar such flashpoint of clarity occurred this past Tuesday in the Texas State House as pro-abortion activists, throughout the day, shouted “Hail Satan!” in an effort to drown out pro-life speeches and an impromptu rendering of “Amazing Grace.” CNN’s Josh Rubin confirmed this astonishing display by tweeting on site: “Crowd of anti-abortion activists giving speeches while a group of people chant hail Satan in the background.”

Let me look at these cases, and hope that there are still some people out there who find them to be as deplorable and horrific as I do. Consider the recent case of infanticide. If this does not shake you up, then you are already dead: “A woman who strangled and killed her newborn baby has been released and will face no jail time thanks to a judge who cited support for legalized abortion in Canada, where abortions are legal and paid for at taxpayer expense.

Planned Parenthood kills 1000 times as many blacks as police do.

According to Black Genocide, Planned Parenthood situates 78 percent of its abortion clinics in minority neighborhoods. It is almost as if Planned Parenthood is targeting black and brown babies.

And perhaps it is. Margaret Sanger, the founder of PP shockingly said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." She created the Negro Project to sterilize unwitting black women and others she considered undesirable. Her motto was grotesque as well as Hitler-esque: "More children from the fit, less from the unfit."

In 2011, the European Council adopted a resolution that protects healthcare workers' right to freedom of conscience regarding abortion and euthanasia. Sweden has signed this agreement. But reality paints a different picture. Out of the 47 member states in the European Council, Finland and Sweden are the only two which do not uphold freedom of conscience in practice.

Ellinor Grimmark, 37, is the first midwife in Sweden to report a hospital to the Discrimination Ombudsman (DO) concerning abortion. She claims to have been discriminated against on the basis of her religious beliefs and moral convictions. Newly-graduated, she was fired from her position last summer because she refused to assist abortions. Even though there is a shortage of midwives at the moment, and even though she is willing to take on double shifts, she has been denied a job ever since. One employer had first agreed to hire her in spite of the “complication”, but withdrew the offer when her story began to spread in media.

Nathanson goes on to describe the real figures: “In 1967 … the federal government listed only 160 deaths from illegal abortion. In the last year before [Roe v Wade], 1972, the total was only 39 deaths”. While 39 is too many, the figure must be held up to the 1.5 million babies killed each year since 1973.

Fourth, what coat hangers? While this is a favourite image offered up by pro-abortionists, the question needs to be asked: Were coat hangers actually used? While we hear about coat hangers all the time, the evidence seems to be that they were hardly ever used. One recent article on this is worth citing here:

My staff and I searched high and low for evidence of an abortion ever having been performed with a coat hanger. We found none. That isn’t to say it never happened. We know that women did attempt to do abortions on themselves, using all manner of objects. But I never found any specific evidence of a coat hanger abortion—until now. What’s unusual about this case of a confirmed coat hanger abortion is that it isn’t one from the archives. It happened in 2009.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Speaking for and of your self.
A great delusion has been foisted upon the earth by those who constantly spout the untruth that a fetus is a baby.
It is about the only "argument" they have.

Here are a few more arguments that we don't have and which the pro-aborts don't want to know about...

1. Having the abortion was very traumatic for me. It is against everything I believe in. I didn’t even give myself a chance to recover, I just carried on with my life as if nothing had happened. I feel so guilty about doing this and I cannot get it out of my head. In spite of the baby being this man’s, it was also part of me.

I feel so guilty and depressed. I cannot sleep or eat and I have completely withdrawn from family and friends. I put on a brave face for everyone at work but I don’t think I can cope anymore. I don’t know whether I can ever forgive myself.

2. Although, our pro-abortion media will not likely give it much coverage, a similar such flashpoint of clarity occurred this past Tuesday in the Texas State House as pro-abortion activists, throughout the day, shouted “Hail Satan!” in an effort to drown out pro-life speeches and an impromptu rendering of “Amazing Grace.” CNN’s Josh Rubin confirmed this astonishing display by tweeting on site: “Crowd of anti-abortion activists giving speeches while a group of people chant hail Satan in the background.”

3. Let me look at these cases, and hope that there are still some people out there who find them to be as deplorable and horrific as I do. Consider the recent case of infanticide. If this does not shake you up, then you are already dead: “A woman who strangled and killed her newborn baby has been released and will face no jail time thanks to a judge who cited support for legalized abortion in Canada, where abortions are legal and paid for at taxpayer expense.

4. Planned Parenthood kills 1000 times as many blacks as police do.

According to Black Genocide, Planned Parenthood situates 78 percent of its abortion clinics in minority neighborhoods. It is almost as if Planned Parenthood is targeting black and brown babies.

And perhaps it is. Margaret Sanger, the founder of PP shockingly said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." She created the Negro Project to sterilize unwitting black women and others she considered undesirable. Her motto was grotesque as well as Hitler-esque: "More children from the fit, less from the unfit."

5. In 2011, the European Council adopted a resolution that protects healthcare workers' right to freedom of conscience regarding abortion and euthanasia. Sweden has signed this agreement. But reality paints a different picture. Out of the 47 member states in the European Council, Finland and Sweden are the only two which do not uphold freedom of conscience in practice.

Ellinor Grimmark, 37, is the first midwife in Sweden to report a hospital to the Discrimination Ombudsman (DO) concerning abortion. She claims to have been discriminated against on the basis of her religious beliefs and moral convictions. Newly-graduated, she was fired from her position last summer because she refused to assist abortions. Even though there is a shortage of midwives at the moment, and even though she is willing to take on double shifts, she has been denied a job ever since. One employer had first agreed to hire her in spite of the “complication”, but withdrew the offer when her story began to spread in media.

6. Nathanson goes on to describe the real figures: “In 1967 … the federal government listed only 160 deaths from illegal abortion. In the last year before [Roe v Wade], 1972, the total was only 39 deaths”. While 39 is too many, the figure must be held up to the 1.5 million babies killed each year since 1973.

Fourth, what coat hangers? While this is a favourite image offered up by pro-abortionists, the question needs to be asked: Were coat hangers actually used? While we hear about coat hangers all the time, the evidence seems to be that they were hardly ever used. One recent article on this is worth citing here:

My staff and I searched high and low for evidence of an abortion ever having been performed with a coat hanger. We found none. That isn’t to say it never happened. We know that women did attempt to do abortions on themselves, using all manner of objects. But I never found any specific evidence of a coat hanger abortion—until now. What’s unusual about this case of a confirmed coat hanger abortion is that it isn’t one from the archives. It happened in 2009.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Not me. I don't believe in souls.

Anyone who is not bothered by the fact that America has aborted 55 million babies since Roe v Wade has certainly lost his soul.

 

[Cearbhall]

You are splitting hairs as you won't acknowledge that a fetus and a baby are one and the same thing.

Fetus: An unborn offspring, from the embryo stage (the end of the eighth week after conception, when the major structures have formed) until birth.
Medicine Net

fetus
[fe´tus] (L.)
the developing young in the uterus, specifically the unborn offspring in the postembryonic period, which in humans is fromthe third month after fertilization until birth. See also embryo. 
Medical Dictionary

fetus
Type: Term
Pronunciation: fē′tŭs, fē′tŭs-ez
Definitions:
1. The unborn young of a viviparous animal following the embryonic period.
2. In humans, the product of conception from the end of the eighth week of gestation to the moment of birth.
MediLexicon

Having reached a little more than 1 in. (2.5 cm) in length by the ninth week of growth, the embryo is called a fetus.
WebMD

noun, plural fetuses. Embryology.
1.
(used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in thewomb or egg, especially in the later stages of development when thebody structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humansafter the end of the second month of gestation.
Dictionary.com

Fetus: An unborn offspring, from the embryo stage (the end of the eighth week after conception, when the major structures have formed) until birth.
EMedicineHealth

Main Entry: fe·tus
Variant(s): or chiefly British foe·tus \ˈfēt-əs\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural fe·tus·es or chiefly British foe·tus·es or foe·ti \ˈfēt-ˌī\
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth—compare embryo
MedlinePlus Merriam-Webster

The unborn young of a viviparous Mammal, in the postembryonic period, after the major structures have been outlined. In Humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after CONCEPTION until Birth, as distinguished from the earlier Embryo, Mammalian.
Online Medical Dictionary
​

And your sources are?

Probably because you can't handle the truth.

Oy vey. Take a bio course.

 

[SteveB28]

A commentary on the link between abortion and depression which the pro-aborts want to keep hidden....

“But friends believe she had never really gotten over her marriage to Miller, which ended in divorce after only a year. In her tell-all autobiography Air Kiss And Tell, she revealed she had an abortion because the pregnancy would interfere with Miller’s preparation for the 2000 Olympics — and blamed that for the start of her long battle with depression.”

“Ms Dawson wrote that she was alone when she had the termination. In her book she wrote that this was her first experience with depression — a battle she continued to fight for the next 14 years.”

And the simple truth is, this is another ugly secret of the abortion industry. Abortion does indeed lead to depression and mental and psychological problems. Women do suffer after an abortion: they can suffer physically, emotionally, and psychologically.

So much so, that a number of support groups exist around the world to help women cope with the after-effects of abortion. Groups such as Women Hurt by Abortion and Victims of Choice deal with women each day who are coming to terms with their abortions.

One counsellor who has dealt with many women who have abortions says this: “One psychological effect we see almost all the time is guilt. Others are suicidal impulses, a sense of loss, or unfulfillment. Mourning, regret and remorse. Withdrawal, loss of confidence in decision-making capabilities.”

Many studies could be referred to here. One longitudinal study published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry found that women who have an abortion are more likely to experience mental health problems later in life, including depression, anxiety and drug and alcohol abuse.

And another, to which I have linked previously finds that over 95% of women who have procured abortions do NOT regret their decision!

How strange that we never hear you people quoting those numbers!

 

[SteveB28]

I was criticised in another discussion for pointing out the lies that one contributor was promoting. Yet, consider.......

We are told by these people that "most" or "many" women are traumatised by their decision to abort.

This is a lie. More than 95% of women procuring abortions report satisfaction with their decision.

We are presented with images of 'typical' abortions involving fully formed foetuses being removed from the womb.

This is a lie. The vast, vast majority are performed in the very early stages of embryonic development. But they don't make as good pictures, do they?

We are told how dangerous abortions are; that they are far more dangerous than the risks of childbirth.

This is a lie. Performed by professionals, abortions are extremely safe. More women die each year from birth complications than from botched abortions. 14 times as many.

We are told that most people want abortions stopped.

This is a lie. Worldwide, there is a majority acceptance of the procedure as a legitimate alternate form of birth control.

Desperate, dishonest people who must resort to lies to promote their selfish desires.