LDS LDS, The Father, and the Trinity

[Peter1000]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith

deuteronomy 18:22
jeremiah 28:9

care to share some prophecies spoken by your prophets?

or did mormon prophecies cease with joseph smith?

You can wail all you want about JS and his prophecies. This is not the thread to do this. But I will answer this question and then don't reply. Stay on topic. You still have not given me a scripture that Jesus is a spirit now?

Of the prophecies of JS: Most have been fullfilled, some will be fullfilled in the future, some are not considered prophecies, some were not fullfilled because circumstances happended that either met a condition and so the prophecy was rendered perfectly null and void. There are many reasons that a prophecy was not fullfilled. Critics are not happy when Mormons say that a prophecy was fullfilled or conditions were met that voided the effects of the prophecy. So there is an argument if that is so, and of course they don't buy it and so it continues.

If you were to spend 1/10 the time and find out in the bible the same questions arise, you would be surprised how many times even the Lord said I will destroy Israel, only to later repent and change His mind, and allow just a plague to come upon them and destroy only a small percentage. Many biblical prophecies either have been fullfilled, or will be fullfilled, or were not fullfilled because circumstance happended that either met a condition and so the prophecy was rendered perfectly null and void. (does that sound familiar?)

Now lest you think I bash the bible, i'm not, I just accept these situations and I move forward feasting on the Word of God in the bible, to get from it the things that are pertinent to my salvation, especially of Jesus Christ our Savior. We do the same with the BOM, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and the monthy magazines that come to us like the Ensign. All to ensure that our testimony and faith in Jesus Christ is solidly positioned to not fail.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I'm having a problem posting on the plagiarism thread can some one help me?

 

[Peter1000]

Actually.

Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam.

And the Old Testament is integral in Judaism.

Your exactly right, Jesus is considered a prophet, but again, not the Son of God, not divine. Many Muslims will be willing to kill you for not acknowledging that Mohammad is equal to Jesus and is the last and therefore the greatest prophet.

You are right again, the OT is integral in Judaism.

Not sure what these statements have to do with a response to my post. But you are right on both of them.

 

[Peter1000]

Still no scripture from you that Jesus is a spirit today. Right under you name you boldly say that Jesus is a spirit now. Then you quote 2 scriptures. John 17:5, and Hebrews 13:8. Are these 2 scriptures supposted to support that Jesus is a spirit now?

John 17:5 is a plea from Jesus for the Father to give him now, the same glory that Jesus had with Him before Jesus's earthly ministry. Does not address whether he is spirit or otherwise.

Hebrews 13:8 says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Same thing, does not address whether he is a spirit or otherwise. Jesus's doctrines have been the same and I think that is what this scripture is trying to convey. But Jesus's form has changed many times since sitting on the right hand of God in the pre-existence. He was a spirit in the pre-existence. His spirit was incarnated into a body of flesh and bone, so when he was on earth, his form was human flesh and bone and spirit. Then for a short 3 days he was only a spirit again, and went to preach to the spirits in prison. (Good topic, who were these spirits in prison, and why did Jesus go to them in the spirit to preach?).

Finally Jesus's spirit was reunited with his flesh and bone body, but this body was a perfect resurrected, incorruptible body and he went to his apostles and showed them that he was not just a spirit, but had flesh and bone. Then later, as they watched, he ascended into heaven in the same body of flesh and bone and spirit to sit again on the right side of his God and our God, his Father and our Father.

So when did he slip out of his body and take on just spirit? Let me know.

 

[Peter1000]

Strawman.

How is this statement a strawman? Please explain.

 

[BigDaddy4]

How is this statement a strawman? Please explain.

It's a false argument, without merit, that he wanted another poster to disprove.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm having a problem posting on the plagiarism thread can some one help me?

I think there is a subforum where they help with technical issues. Probably in Member Services somewhere. Hope that helps.

 

[Peter1000]

the resurrection was a confirmation sign to believers he was the son of god and not bound by death and god promised his holy one would not see corruption (decay).

obviously while the body laid in tomb for three days while christ preached to the spirits in sheol about what i personally suspect would be the second coming and the resurrection.

the body was raised and presented to the disciples but once christ ascended he returned to glory he shared with the father before the earth was made. jesus wasnt flesh and bone before the earth was made. he was a spirit.

So the main reason for Jesus's resurrection and appearances in a body of flesh and bone and spirit was to prove that he was the Son of God, and not bound by death?

So you are saying that in order for Jesus to share glory with the Father after his resurrection, he must be in the same spirit form like he was before the earth was made when he shared glory with the Father then?

 

[Peter1000]

Do you know what the word 'prophecy' means? It is a vision or telling of something that will happen in the future. If you are unclear about what the word means, how can you say something is or is not a prophecy?

Now in Numbers 14, God did NOT make a prophecy. God does not make a prophecy, He is the One who gives prophecy.

Why don't you tell me, SPECIFICALLY, what in Numbers 14 is prophecy in your view?

Numbers 14:12
12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

Here God has just made a statement of what he is going to do. It is the equivelant of prophecy. Whether it is by His mouth or the mouth of His prophet, it does not matter. God has made a definitive statement, He will smite them with the pestilence, & disinherit them & make a greater nation than they.(Prophecy )

That was the prophecy, but this is the condition that changed the prophecy. Moses pleaded with God and told Him of the negatives that he saw with that prophecy. God then decided to change the prophecy and went another direction. He had them wander in the wilderness for 40 years, until all that would not follow Him were dead and buried.

Here is another one:
Numbers 14:21-23
21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
Here is the original promise:
Genesis 12:7
7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: (no conditions) and there builded he an altarunto the Lord, who appeared unto him. (The prophecy)

Here God is letting Moses know that even though He promised their fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob),
that their seed would inherit this land, He is not going to keep that promise for those seed that disobeyed Him. (the condition that changed the prophecy).

The same kinds of things happen to all prophets, if we look close, even JS.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Numbers 14:12
12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

Here God has just made a statement of what he is going to do. It is the equivelant of prophecy. Whether it is by His mouth or the mouth of His prophet, it does not matter. God has made a definitive statement, He will smite them with the pestilence, & disinherit them & make a greater nation than they.(Prophecy )

That was the prophecy, but this is the condition that changed the prophecy. Moses pleaded with God and told Him of the negatives that he saw with that prophecy. God then decided to change the prophecy and went another direction. He had them wander in the wilderness for 40 years, until all that would not follow Him were dead and buried.

Here is another one:
Numbers 14:21-23
21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
Here is the original promise:
Genesis 12:7
7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: (no conditions) and there builded he an altarunto the Lord, who appeared unto him. (The prophecy)

Here God is letting Moses know that even though He promised their fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob),
that their seed would inherit this land, He is not going to keep that promise for those seed that disobeyed Him. (the condition that changed the prophecy).

The same kinds of things happen to all prophets, if we look close, even JS.

In those verses the people that were alive and worshipped the Golden Calf, did die and never saw the promised land. But their children and descendants received the promised land as promised by God.

This is why the Lord did not wipe out all of them, only the ones who were responsible for worshipping the false god.

Unto their seed He did give the land.

So what prophecy was not fulfilled?

 

[Peter1000]

In those verses the people that were alive and worshipped the Golden Calf, did die and never saw the promised land. But their children and descendants received the promised land as promised by God.

This is why the Lord did not wipe out all of them, only the ones who were responsible for worshipping the false god.

Unto their seed He did give the land.

So what prophecy was not fulfilled?

TBL says:
In those verses the people that were alive and worshipped the Golden Calf, did die and never saw the promised land. But their children and descendants received the promised land as promised by God.

my response:

Numbers 14 is not about the golden calf incident. The prophecy in Numbers 14 was about the 12 men who were called to go into the promised land and bring a report as to how to conquer it. 10 of them said it is unconquerable, 2 said it was. The people decided it was not conquerable and turned against the Lord, and were about to choose leaders to take them back to Egypt

God, in his righteous anger said, Num. 14:12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they. (The prophecy)

This prophecy was never fullfilled. Not one word of it. Moses talked to God and told Him things that changed His mind. So God changed and went into another direction. He had them march around the desert untill all those 20 years old and above died, and then their children interited the land.

In Genesis 12:7 God said this:7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: (no conditions) and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him. (The prophecy)

This prophecy was only partially fullfilled. Those seed that worshipped the golden calf, who berated God for food and water, who rejected God's command to now go into the promised land, and started heading back to Egypt, all got killed before they entered into the promised land. Only part of Abrahams seed entered into the promised land, not all.

The prophecy of Numbers 14:12 and Genesis 12:7 were not fully fulfilled. Prophcies can be changed, altered, or dropped, according to the way the people act that the prophecy is about. Numbers 14 shows you 2 ways that happens. If you don't see it, I will try again.

 

[Ironhold]

I do not see it that way at all.

What I see is that Christians who believe the BIble are almost unshakable in their beliefs and are the ones that are best able to reply to and debunk the critics. Because if these people want to hold an intense conversation on the Bible once Mormons throw in some of their other beliefs than it becomes a problem and does not help.

Just my opionion

If these people are "best able" then how come I've encountered so few who could put forth a coherent defense?

Most such people I've encountered base their defense on plugging their ears, shutting their eyes, and praying that whatever their minister fed them will be enough.

 

[Peter1000]

I do not see it that way at all.

What I see is that Christians who believe the BIble are almost unshakable in their beliefs and are the ones that are best able to reply to and debunk the critics. Because if these people want to hold an intense conversation on the Bible once Mormons throw in some of their other beliefs than it becomes a problem and does not help.

Just my opionion

I'm glad you have an unshakable belief in the bible, because that leads to an unshakable belief in Jesus Christ which is the important thing.

 

[Peter1000]

If these people are "best able" then how come I've encountered so few who could put forth a coherent defense?

Most such people I've encountered base their defense on plugging their ears, shutting their eyes, and praying that whatever their minister fed them will be enough.

You are probably right about that. Most people are uncomfortable trying to explain the details. Most people can't explain the details, so they behave like you said above. Most people get frustrated if you don't believe them on the first level. They cannot go to a second or third level. Don't get to frustrated, these too are good people, just not willing to deate the issue thoroughly.

 

[Peter1000]

That is the gospel my friend.

That is the beginning and the end.

There is nothing that we need besides that. It's a shame some get unfocused on what the prize. Is. Unrealiziingly, you damage the sovereignty of Christ by comparing Him as a spirit brother of Satan.

How does that damage Christ's sovereignty? 2 sons, 1 turned out to be perfectly righteous, 1 turned out to be perfectly evil. They have now parted company, the evil one is still trying to destroy the righteous one. Jesus is still independent and sovereign, and is still God the Son, whom everyone worships. How does knowing Jesus was once a brother to lucifer effect his sovereignty? It doesn't, except some pastor came up with the idea, and can't back it up.

 

[ToBeLoved]

TBL says:
In those verses the people that were alive and worshipped the Golden Calf, did die and never saw the promised land. But their children and descendants received the promised land as promised by God.

my response:

Numbers 14 is not about the golden calf incident. The prophecy in Numbers 14 was about the 12 men who were called to go into the promised land and bring a report as to how to conquer it. 10 of them said it is unconquerable, 2 said it was. The people decided it was not conquerable and turned against the Lord, and were about to choose leaders to take them back to Egypt

God, in his righteous anger said, Num. 14:12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they. (The prophecy)

This prophecy was never fullfilled. Not one word of it. Moses talked to God and told Him things that changed His mind. So God changed and went into another direction. He had them march around the desert untill all those 20 years old and above died, and then their children interited the land.

In Genesis 12:7 God said this:7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: (no conditions) and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him. (The prophecy)

This prophecy was only partially fullfilled. Those seed that worshipped the golden calf, who berated God for food and water, who rejected God's command to now go into the promised land, and started heading back to Egypt, all got killed before they entered into the promised land. Only part of Abrahams seed entered into the promised land, not all.

The prophecy of Numbers 14:12 and Genesis 12:7 were not fully fulfilled. Prophcies can be changed, altered, or dropped, according to the way the people act that the prophecy is about. Numbers 14 shows you 2 ways that happens. If you don't see it, I will try again.

God said to Abraham "Unto your seed I will give this land"

And God did.

End of story. Your grasping at nothing, because seed is descendants.

You do not even know what the word prophecy means. So let's get a definition first and foremost so we are both on the same page.

After we are done we can talk about all JS prophecies that are totally bogus.

 

[Peter1000]

God said to Abraham "Unto your seed I will give this land"

And God did.

End of story. Your grasping at nothing, because seed is descendants.

You do not even know what the word prophecy means. So let's get a definition first and foremost so we are both on the same page.

After we are done we can talk about all JS prophecies that are totally bogus.

If God says something that he is going to do, whether from his mouth directly or by the mouth of a prophet, do you consider that prophecy?

 

[ToBeLoved]

So the main reason for Jesus's resurrection and appearances in a body of flesh and bone and spirit was to prove that he was the Son of God, and not bound by death?

So you are saying that in order for Jesus to share glory with the Father after his resurrection, he must be in the same spirit form like he was before the earth was made when he shared glory with the Father then?

Why do you not understand the basic premises of the Bible if your religion studies the Bible?

It would almost be funny if it were not God's Holy Word.

Jesus was RAISED and RESURRECTED by the Father to show ALL that Jesus sacrifice for sin was accepted by the Father.

As Jesus said when He took His last breath on the cross, "It is finished".

Done. Forever. Sin is dead. Conquered. Never to be conquered again.

Why not ask yourself and search for the answers for the questions you present?

It shows how much you are not looking for truth, but trying to make a point on a forum.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If God says something that he is going to do, whether from his mouth directly or by the mouth of a prophet, do you consider that prophecy?

Prophecy for me is a very delicate subject.

Jesus Himself warned of false prophets.

If any prophecy conflicts with the Bible than it is false, hence the BOM prophecies that are not true.

God has told us that His Word is complete so His Children can do everything that we are called to do in Christ Jesus. Moreover, you should concentrate on having the Holy Spirit which is God Himself indwelling you and not be swayed by the prophecies of men that many, many times are false. Wolves in sheep's clothing. Wolves pretending to be sheep to get close to Christ's Beloved.

 

[Peter1000]

Why do you not understand the basic premises of the Bible if your religion studies the Bible?

It would almost be funny if it were not God's Holy Word.

Jesus was RAISED and RESURRECTED by the Father to show ALL that Jesus sacrifice for sin was accepted by the Father.

As Jesus said when He took His last breath on the cross, "It is finished".

Done. Forever. Sin is dead. Conquered. Never to be conquered again.

Why not ask yourself and search for the answers for the questions you present?

It shows how much you are not looking for truth, but trying to make a point on a forum.

First of all, I was answering 'random person'. He said that the reason for the resurrection was to show people that Jesus was the Son of God and that he had power over death. So I was just trying to make sure of what he said.

Second there are many reasons for the resurrection, you raise a good one, so did random person, I could raise another one. We all have a fair amount of knowledge on this topic.

I believe I have a pretty good understanding of the premise of the bible, as I believe you have. However, once we get into the details, we will disagree in many ways. For instance, the topic that we have been talking about. Gabriel told Mary how she was going to get pregnant without knowing a man.
Now we would both agree with the simple doctrine that Mary was the mother of Jesus. We would both say that this is a true statement.
Beyond that first level statement, it gets more difficult. The text says that the HG fell upon her and the power of the Highest overshadowed her. Well, what does that mean?
We look at it one way through the eyes of our tradition and you look at it another way through the eyes of your tradition. How do we reconcile that? We don't apparently, but does that make me anathema to you? No, since you are talking to me, which I appreciate. You don't know how much I look forward to waking up in the morning and getting your response to my post. I have learned a lot from all of you and hope that the Lord blesses all of us with patience, I know it can be hard sometimes, but it is worth it.