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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
The "covenant" was an agreement between two parties. When the other party broke it, it needed to be renewed. There is no flaw in Torah but in the people who were supposed to keep it.
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Who are you to say they were just only "rituals". According to YHWH, a man was to be killed for breaking Shabbat. He almost killed Moshe for not being circumcised. And if you did not come to Him in the Temple in a certain way, you would die in an instant. We do not observe Torah for salvation, we always have to explain this. We observe it because of our salvation.
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I am fine with whatever you feel you need to do. I personally see it differently and have expressed why. You have either glossed over my posts in haste to write more about your faith or maybe you didn't have answers. All I know is that some of my posts have not been answered.
I know how SDAs feel about me not being observant of Sabbath. According to them I am going to Hell. What is the belief of Messianics on the subject. Is not being observant of feast days, Sabbath, new moons and only eating certain food against God's commands and will it send me to hell. If so please provide the scripture that proves your point.
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I read your post, I did not skim through it. Which posts have not been answered? If you wish to speak to me in a better setting, then message me if you'd like. I do not believe that you are going to hell. Torah does not save us from damnation, only Yeshua saves. Since I do not believe that you will go to hell, do you still want me to provide scriptures for my beliefs? I could do it better by messaging you.
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I would appreciate if you could provide a quote to back that up because I can not recall any post about Sabbath telling people they are damned if they don't keep it. I do not know your inward heart relationship with God, so He will judge you on the light you have received according to His will.
I do know that the Sabbath/Sunday issue will become a salvational issue in the very near future, but don't worry, all will know the choice they will be making.
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renew: re-establish (a relationship). I can use Messianic covenant as well.
Hebrews 8:7 KJV - "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."
This is not talking about Torah, it is talking about the agreement between Adonai and Israel. It was faulty because Israel did not keep their word.
Hebrews 8:8 KJV - "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"
Hebrews 8:9 KJV - "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord."
Hebrews 8:10 KJV - "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
In this covenant, the terms or laws do not change. They are the same laws that were given at Sinai. Putting it into our hearts and minds does not mean abolishing Torah. Look:
Deuteronomy 30:10-14 KJV - "If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."
The reason that Torah was put in our heart is so that we may do it!
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It is righteous and good and it is perfect. "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." - Psalm 19:7 KJV
"And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee," - Deuteronomy 30:1 KJV
It did not only condemn those who did not keep it. It blessed those who kept it as well. It is a blessing to the obedient, and a curse to the disobedient. The law of sin and death was not Torah itself, did you read my commentary? Also, what do you mean by brainwashed? We simply came to a conclusion from examining the Scriptures!
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The law of the Lord is not the Torah which included the 10 commandments. The law of the Lord is love. Paul the ambassador of Jesus didn't lie. He plainly stated that the 10 commandments were temporary. I know from debating with other Messianics that they do not consider Paul s being authentic. I do and if you try to change the plain words that he wrote then there is something flawed in your doctrines
As far as we know they didn't call them to mind. Jews have never tried to proselytize.
Only one kept it my friend and that was Jesus. Had they kept it Jesus would not have had to come to save them.
As I just said no one kept it so i suppose everyone was cursed. Paul wrote that it was the 10 commandments you know, the temporary ones given only to Israel.
Yes, and I intend to comment on the mistakes, but I will be out of town for a few days.
We? meaning the ones you have learned from for what you are proclaiming. As far as the brainwashing thing, we are all brainwashed with what we believe. That does not necessarily mean something bad.
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That was part of the problem and why the scepter was passed to the gentiles. The Jews were to be a witness to all the nations around them for the purpose of bringing them to a right understanding of God, but they were more interested in becoming like the nations around them than doing God's work.
When the OT says the Law was a blessing it doesn't mean because for those that can keep it but because it revealed in themselves their sinful ways and there need of a Saviour. Why did David so expressively declare the Law such a delight? Because it revealed to him his salvation in the Lord.
True statement.. however the word brainwashing has negative connotations attached to it. Maybe the word 'influenced' would be a better choice.
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Torah is the covenant.
4 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
3 Your eyes have seen what the Lord did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the Lord thy God hath destroyed them from among you.
4 But ye that did cleave unto the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day.
5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. Deut
bugkiller
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I have not come across one verse it the old testament that would reveal Israelites proselytizing Gentile nations. Where did you get your information. Jews have, even to today, been a close group. Jews as a rule, if they are living kosher are very adamant about marriage out of their faith.
The law revealed sin, not Davids salvation. God, by grace, saved David. Grace saves, law condemns.
Where do you come up with these things?
I agree.
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Artful dodge. The text I highlighted proves you're wrong. The Greek word for :new" is "kainos" which does not mean renew. Note the English text agrees with this Greek word.
new
- as respects form
- recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
- as respects substance
- of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of
- recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
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They were not to dilute themselves like thy did by allowing heathen spouses into their midst to led them to idolatry, they were to show these heathen nations that their God was the true God. but they couldn't stay true themselves let alone be a witness....
Here's a verse... remember that Jesus was speaking to the Jews here...
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
We have co-opted this verse for Christianity and it applies to us of course but Christ was speaking of the work given to the Jews.
No one said that the Law was David's salvation but it pointed him to the One who was. That is why David proclaimed it as a blessing... the same way we praise God because of out trials. We know that through them, we will be stronger in our faith and able to better surrender to Him. We don't praise the storm but the purpose of the storm...same with the Law.
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Jesus is talking to His disciples here. The verse isn't a statement about Israel.
bugkiller
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