What think ye? :)

[danny ski]

Are you sure?

Jeremiah :31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

I don't see the connection with the dragon.

 

[danny ski]

You say that like its a bad thing

Just stating the obvious.

 

[Extraneous]

I don't see the connection with the dragon.

What do you mean? Please expound.

 

[danny ski]

What do you mean? Please expound.

Originally, I was commenting on post #63

 

[Extraneous]

Originally, I was commenting on post #63

Ok, im confused.

 

[danny ski]

Ok, im confused.

The last line of that post says that some dragon will make war on people who follow commandments and Jesus. Since the followers of commandments(Jews) don't follow Jesus and the followers of Jesus don't follow the commandments, hence my comment.

 

[Extraneous]

The last line of that post says that some dragon will make war on people who follow commandments and Jesus. Since the followers of commandments(Jews) don't follow Jesus and the followers of Jesus don't follow the commandments, hence my comment.

You are quoting Revelation, which are words given By Christ, to accuse followers of Christ of following the dragon? I dont understand.

BTW, not everyone who calls Him Lord actually follow him, as he said in Mathew chapter 7.

Im a follower of Christ and i follow His commandments, but i dont follow Moses though.

 

[dfw69]

The last line of that post says that some dragon will make war on people who follow commandments and Jesus. Since the followers of commandments(Jews) don't follow Jesus and the followers of Jesus don't follow the commandments, hence my comment.

Lol i was not sure if you were just joking or being sarcastic but that's funny

Yeah I'm slow

 

[danny ski]

You are quoting Revelation, which are words given By Christ, to accuse followers of Christ of following the dragon? I dont understand.

BTW, not everyone who calls Him Lord actually follow him, as he said in Mathew chapter 7.

Im a follower of Christ and i follow His commandments, but i dont follow Moses though.

Never mind. It was just a flippant remark on our differences.

 

[Extraneous]

Never mind. It was just a flippant remark on our differences.

Ok. No problem.

 

[dfw69]

true or false?

False, here's why I say that..

I think the religion of Yeshua will emanate from him. It will not be a reformation of any extant or extinct form of Christianty or Judaism. When he comes, the truth will shine forth from him. In the millennium, "the law will go forth from Zion, the word of God from Jerusalem", as scripture says.

In the days before Y'shia returns many will have fallen away because of false doctrines ,false messiahs ,false prophets, False teachers ....I believe he is referring to a false messianic age when Judah establishes a kingdom and the temple is built...many will return to Judaism and deny Y'shia work ...will Y'shia find faith in him and his teachings when he returns?....so I believe the above verse is referring to his laws of the new covenant established on earth because it will have been suppressed for a time ...he will establish Ezekiel temple and a new form of worship ..not the old form ..

I view the Kingdom and the Religion of Yeshua as basically synonymous (for many intents and purposes). All the religions and other systems that exist today, particularly some of the Abrahamic religions, have the function of preparing us for life in the physical Kingdom of Yeshua on earth. I also think it is fair to categorize Yeshua's religion as a form of Judaism, however it would have more similarities to ancient Judaism than to modern Judaism.

Some Jews don't believe Y'shia teachings is a form of Judaism at all

For Christianity to "receive Torah" would mean that it would cease to be Christianity. I do not think that for Judaism to "receive Yeshua" would mean that it would cease to be Judaism, and I think it would be easier in theory for Judaism to accept Yeshua than for Christianity to receive Torah.

Christians are followers of Y'shia laws namely 2 ..love God and love man (man are sinners we must learn to love sinners by forgiving sin as Y'shia ...like Moses who came down from mt horeb Y'shia came down from mt Zion in heaven to give us 2 laws and build his foundation from there... I believe it's a form of Judaism ..

Accepting Yeshua would be mostly a change in doctrine for Judaism, whereas going from non-Torah to Torah lifestyle, calendar, feasts, and thereby abandoning the pagan festivals, rituals, etc. would be, for Christianity, to completely reimagine itself, both theoretically and practically.

Followers of Y'shia will most likely follow the establishment of worship as found in Ezekiel temple worship ...until it is no longer needed..

But the main goal of all followers of Y'shia is to live in new Jerusalem where all nations are welcome and united as one under God ...

Personally I do not seek an earthy kingdom but a heavenly one .. Now on earth is our test to see if we can live at peace with all men ..

Saying "Yeshua is the Messiah" is a much simpler thing than to go from non-Torah to Torah lifestyle, to say the least. Hence modern Judaism is much closer to the religion of Yeshua than Christianity, by virtue of it needing less change. However, again, while I see Yeshua's religion as a form of Judaism, I do not see it as an organizational continuation of any Hasidic dynasty, or any other modern Jewish organization.

We are not non-Torah ...we Christians follow 2 laws of Judaism ... How we follow these laws are different from how others follow Torah ...Y'shia yoke made easy .. Or easier ..less of a burden ..

But we believe we are indeed free from the old Torah ..but we are responsible for our freedom or lyberty .. It is evident ... For whatsoever a man sows that he will reap


Thank you for your reply ... It was well thought of ... Peace

 

[pat34lee]

I think this thread has run its course. It is against the rules to teach
against following the law in this forum. That includes defending why
anyone does not follow them.

"No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat."​

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/messianic-judaism-forum-statement-of-purpose.7916718/

 

[Extraneous]

I think this thread has run its course. It is against the rules to teach
against following the law in this forum. That includes defending why
anyone does not follow them.

"No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat."​

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/messianic-judaism-forum-statement-of-purpose.7916718/

I tried not doing that, i only wanted to share the Jeremiah scripture, nothing more. I understand that this forum has rules.

 

[dfw69]

I think this thread has run its course. It is against the rules to teach
against following the law in this forum. That includes defending why
anyone does not follow them.

"No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat."​

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/messianic-judaism-forum-statement-of-purpose.7916718/

Ok .. Your right I went to far ..thanks

For the record I don't believe we are to keep noachide laws ..I agree with messianics that we are one body and should observe Y'shia teachings ...


Only few difference I see between us.... Mainly we Christians keep 2 and messianics keep 10 plus the feasts

I would like to thank everyone who replied and say that I appreciated the wonderful hospitality y'all have shown me here ...peace and love

 

[visionary]

On these two hand ALL the law and prophets....Matthew 22:40

 

[BukiRob]

Your more than welcome to school me on the purpose of the law...

What I know is the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Y'shua ..

The law can't save only condemn

The promises of God do not come from the law

The law is bondage Paul made this clear Galatians 4:21-31

I have answered that question several times in this very thread. Yes it is to lead you to Yeshua. We are told in NUMEROUS places that we are to WALK AS HE WALKED. HOW DID HE WALK? In complete, total obedience to Torah.

Again, you try to force Paul as an anti Torah teacher yet you failed to respond to my question about Paul and the Law in Acts. If indeed Paul is truly anti Torah as YOU suggest why did he do what James and the Elders commanded him to do to show SPECIFICALLY that Paul was NOT anti Torah and was NOT teaching against the teaching of Moche found in Acts 21:23-26

23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who [f]are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and [g]pay their expenses so that they may shave their [h]heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul [j]took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

What do you believe salvation is?

Salvation to me is Y'shua paying our debt of the sins committed against the law....that is why he died .. He was a sin offering .. You disagree with this work of Y'shua?

I have answered this question as well. Do you not read what I am writing in MANY cases specifically to you? Adam, Abraham, David, the prophets were all saved the same way YOU and I are saved. BY FAITH, through GRACE. Paul in Romans 4 speaks of this.

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

This fact, clearly, unmistakably shows that Law Can not, did not and NEVER WILL save anyone from anything.

I honestly don't know.. Does it say he actually did what he was asked to do?..

Perhaps Paul did not speak against the Gentiles entering into circumcision because he had not yet received that revelation yet.. But it's clear that Paul eventually does speak against entering into the law teaching there are 2 covenants Galatians 4:21-31 ..and is tried and becomes a martyr

Yes, Paul did EXACTLY what he was instructed to do because Paul not only DID NOT TEACH AGAINST TORAH, he himself was fully obedient to it.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. 27When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, 28crying out, “Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” 29For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple. [/Quote]

I agree ..that is why I have been seeking Jewish understanding from both Jews and messianics .. So thank you very much for sharing ..peace

I first came to Messiah in 1968 when I was 10 years old. I was raised in the evangelical church. I was taught all of the things you have presented but as I continued my walk unsettling questions that demanded answers nagged at me. It all started with who changed sabbath and why. You see scripture is truth and inerrant or it is not. If it is inerrant then when it declares that G-d changes not.... well, you start to run into problems.

Who taught the gentiles that the Feast days of G-d are no longer to be observed and why? They are not the feast days of the Jews nor the feast days of Torah but they are G-d's appointed time. What New Testament passage set these things aside? Sabbath is a part of CREATION. It predates any notion of a jewish torah. Since it is the final part of creation itself does it not then make it a very, very, very important, nay a FOUNDATIONAL concept? There can be NO QUESTION that Sabbath is a foundational concept, NONE.

As such why did Messiah not speak of it after his resurrection if it were to be set aside. If it were to be set aside then why did ALL of the apostles CONTINUE to observe it faithfully and why do we see James saying the following:

Acts 21:20And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

Notice that NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE do James or ANYONE ELSE declare that this is error. In fact, there is not even the slightest of a hint that this is error. We know historically that the believers in Asia Minor well into the 4th century observed Sabbath and the feast days. Even when the Roman emperor declared that anyone keeping sabbath was to be put to death!

It is clear (at least to me) when you study early church history, that the abandonment of Sabbath and the Feast days of G-d was a man made construct NOT found in scriptural doctrine but to appease and attract pagans in the Roman Empire.

 

[dfw69]

I have answered that question several times in this very thread. Yes it is to lead you to Yeshua. We are told in NUMEROUS places that we are to WALK AS HE WALKED. HOW DID HE WALK? In complete, total obedience to Torah.

Again, you try to force Paul as an anti Torah teacher yet you failed to respond to my question about Paul and the Law in Acts. If indeed Paul is truly anti Torah as YOU suggest why did he do what James and the Elders commanded him to do to show SPECIFICALLY that Paul was NOT anti Torah and was NOT teaching against the teaching of Moche found in Acts 21:23-26

23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who [f]are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and [g]pay their expenses so that they may shave their [h]heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul [j]took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.





I have answered this question as well. Do you not read what I am writing in MANY cases specifically to you? Adam, Abraham, David, the prophets were all saved the same way YOU and I are saved. BY FAITH, through GRACE. Paul in Romans 4 speaks of this.

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

This fact, clearly, unmistakably shows that Law Can not, did not and NEVER WILL save anyone from anything.





Yes, Paul did EXACTLY what he was instructed to do because Paul not only DID NOT TEACH AGAINST TORAH, he himself was fully obedient to it.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. 27When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, 28crying out, “Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” 29For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple.

I first came to Messiah in 1968 when I was 10 years old. I was raised in the evangelical church. I was taught all of the things you have presented but as I continued my walk unsettling questions that demanded answers nagged at me. It all started with who changed sabbath and why. You see scripture is truth and inerrant or it is not. If it is inerrant then when it declares that G-d changes not.... well, you start to run into problems.

Who taught the gentiles that the Feast days of G-d are no longer to be observed and why? They are not the feast days of the Jews nor the feast days of Torah but they are G-d's appointed time. What New Testament passage set these things aside? Sabbath is a part of CREATION. It predates any notion of a jewish torah. Since it is the final part of creation itself does it not then make it a very, very, very important, nay a FOUNDATIONAL concept? There can be NO QUESTION that Sabbath is a foundational concept, NONE.

As such why did Messiah not speak of it after his resurrection if it were to be set aside. If it were to be set aside then why did ALL of the apostles CONTINUE to observe it faithfully and why do we see James saying the following:

Acts 21:20And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

Notice that NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE do James or ANYONE ELSE declare that this is error. In fact, there is not even the slightest of a hint that this is error. We know historically that the believers in Asia Minor well into the 4th century observed Sabbath and the feast days. Even when the Roman emperor declared that anyone keeping sabbath was to be put to death!

It is clear (at least to me) when you study early church history, that the abandonment of Sabbath and the Feast days of G-d was a man made construct NOT found in scriptural doctrine but to appease and attract pagans in the Roman Empire.[/QUOTE]
I'm not allowed to discuss my beliefs conserning the law .. Sorry brother peace


Perhaps I may be able to try to answer some of your responds without breaking the rules ..have to work get back to you later

 

[dfw69]

I have answered that question several times in this very thread. Yes it is to lead you to Yeshua. We are told in NUMEROUS places that we are to WALK AS HE WALKED. HOW DID HE WALK? In complete, total obedience to Torah.

He obeyed the father and fulfilled the Torah ...I obey and fulfill Y'shia wishes that's all I can say about why I do not obey the 10 commandments .. I keep his new laws namley 2 love God love men ...how?... By forgiving sin 70x7 in one day ,turning the other cheek ,judge not ,condemn not, love men as God ,love enemies, bless my enemies ..love sinners ... This is what I believe a holy life consist of ...keeping the faith in Y'shia

Again, you try to force Paul as an anti Torah teacher yet you failed to respond to my question about Paul and the Law in Acts. If indeed Paul is truly anti Torah as YOU suggest why did he do what James and the Elders commanded him to do to show SPECIFICALLY that Paul was NOT anti Torah and was NOT teaching against the teaching of Moche found in Acts 21:23-26

23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who [f]are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and [g]pay their expenses so that they may shave their [h]heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul [j]took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

I had answer why in an earlier post ... ...but now I must not break the rules again for I enjoy my time here on messianic Judaism forum and I do not wish to unwelcome my stay ...

I have answered this question as well. Do you not read what I am writing in MANY cases specifically to you? Adam, Abraham, David, the prophets were all saved the same way YOU and I are saved. BY FAITH, through GRACE. Paul in Romans 4 speaks of this.

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

This fact, clearly, unmistakably shows that Law Can not, did not and NEVER WILL save anyone from anything.

Amen we are in agreement here

Yes, Paul did EXACTLY what he was instructed to do because Paul not only DID NOT TEACH AGAINST TORAH, he himself was fully obedient to it.

I see that now but I cannot comment...

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. 27When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, 28crying out, “Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” 29For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple.

I first came to Messiah in 1968 when I was 10 years old. I was raised in the evangelical church. I was taught all of the things you have presented but as I continued my walk unsettling questions that demanded answers nagged at me. It all started with who changed sabbath and why. You see scripture is truth and inerrant or it is not. If it is inerrant then when it declares that G-d changes not.... well, you start to run into problems.

Who taught the gentiles that the Feast days of G-d are no longer to be observed and why? They are not the feast days of the Jews nor the feast days of Torah but they are G-d's appointed time. What New Testament passage set these things aside? Sabbath is a part of CREATION. It predates any notion of a jewish torah. Since it is the final part of creation itself does it not then make it a very, very, very important, nay a FOUNDATIONAL concept? There can be NO QUESTION that Sabbath is a foundational concept, NONE.

As such why did Messiah not speak of it after his resurrection if it were to be set aside. If it were to be set aside then why did ALL of the apostles CONTINUE to observe it faithfully and why do we see James saying the following:

Acts 21:20And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

Notice that NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE do James or ANYONE ELSE declare that this is error. In fact, there is not even the slightest of a hint that this is error. We know historically that the believers in Asia Minor well into the 4th century observed Sabbath and the feast days. Even when the Roman emperor declared that anyone keeping sabbath was to be put to death!

It is clear (at least to me) when you study early church history, that the abandonment of Sabbath and the Feast days of G-d was a man made construct NOT found in scriptural doctrine but to appease and attract pagans in the Roman Empire.

I don't believe in history account as accurate history ... That it can be manipulated .. We were not there to see for ourselves ..nor can we judge if history is true...only God knows what is really going on

But I have a question ... What happens if you fail to keep the feast days?... Is there a curse for not observing the feast of God?

 

[BukiRob]

He obeyed the father and fulfilled the Torah ...I obey and fulfill Y'shia wishes that's all I can say about why I do not obey the 10 commandments .. I keep his new laws namley 2 love God love men ...how?... By forgiving sin 70x7 in one day ,turning the other cheek ,judge not ,condemn not, love men as God ,love enemies, bless my enemies ..love sinners ... This is what I believe a holy life consist of ...keeping the faith in Y'shia



I had answer why in an earlier post ... ...but now I must not break the rules again for I enjoy my time here on messianic Judaism forum and I do not wish to unwelcome my stay ...







Amen we are in agreement here







I see that now but I cannot comment...







I don't believe in history account as accurate history ... That it can be manipulated .. We were not there to see for ourselves ..nor can we judge if history is true...only God knows what is really going on

But I have a question ... What happens if you fail to keep the feast days?... Is there a curse for not observing the feast of God?

Brother, why dont you read scripture for yourself? The only feast that has a curse applied to it is if you fail to observe the Passover. To do so the punishment is to be cut off from Israel.

Numbers 9:13-14 But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and yet neglects to observe the Passover, that person shall then be cut off from his people, for he did not present the offering of the LORD at its appointed time. That man will bear his sin. 14 ‘If an alien sojourns among you and observes the Passover to the LORD, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its ordinance, so he shall do; you shall have one statute, both for the alien and for the native of the land.’”

 

[visionary]

But I have a question ... What happens if you fail to keep the feast days?... Is there a curse for not observing the feast of God?

Wouldn't that be like not being there when the spring feasts were fulfilled? We have an opportunity to be there "spiritually" when the fall feasts are going to be fulfilled.... if you don't observe,.. would you miss out?

We look back at that Passover long ago, and get the message. I don't think there will be any type of time period to get on board with the fall feasts. Either you are seeing and understand its fulfillment or you miss out. That is where the rehearsals become very important. It is also why God asked you to be in Jerusalem three times a year. ..