Christianity without Paul

[fhansen]

How much of Christianity is Paul? Is the faith as we know it made up mostly of Paul and his teachings?

Where would we be without Paul?

I have wondered about Paul. He does seem to take up a large part of the NT in his writings etc. Did he have his own agenda? Was his teachings very different from those of Jesus?

I ask these questions because i am curious to know if others have asked these questions and what answers people give. I for one are very much inexperienced in Biblical matters but i am trying to learn more and more as time goes on.

Paul teaches the same as Jesus taught-he just emphasizes the only authentic way to fulfill God's law: by the Spirit rather than by the letter. And this Spiritual connection is realized by faith, the primary step in accomplishing communion between man and God, 'apart from Whom we can do nothing', to paraphrase John 15:5.

 

[Root of Jesse]

If you believe the Bible and the New Testament in 2 Timothy 3:16 there we read that ALL Scripture is Inspired by God. Personally I believe that each writer in the Bible the Holy Spirit directed those writers what to put down. So Paul was directed what to day he did not get to insert his agenda even if he had one There is no place where Paul differed from the teachings of Jesus.

Being a Catholic your church elevates the Apostles and honors them, Paul included. Being a Protestant I have a more high view of Scripture and literally believe Paul was even directed every word, not just a thought. I say this because if Paul was in any way not completely in agreement with Jesus in every single way, none of the New Testament Books written by him would have been allowed in the Bible.

I hope this helps. Keep reading the Bible.

What we forget is that Paul was writing letters to Christian communities in order to correct them, reprove them, or encourage them in their faith. His faith was completely from Jesus, with an understanding that his Jewish roots give him a point of view. I believe he spent some time in the desert after his Damascus Road experience, contemplating and digesting what Jesus taught him in those few days after he was knocked off his high horse. And piecing it all together into one organic body of faith. But lets be clear-all the apostles had some sort of 'Damascus Road Experience', though probably not as dramatic as Paul's. Peter's came between the time he denied Christ until Jesus asked three times 'Simon, do you love me?'. Of course, the instillation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Paul's personal journey in the desert was his 'Holy Spirit moment', I believe.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think there are some within Christianity that do not view Paul as an inspired Apostle sent by God/Jesus. [Non-Christian Judaism and Islam both denounce him of course.].

There are a few threads on this topic if you and others are interested.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/those-who-denounce-paul.7773297/#post-64121318
Those who denounce Paul

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

Introduction

Thus far, I have shown that Paul's concept of God's foreknowledge, and his doctrine of predestination not only do not exist in Yeshua's words or the Hebrew Scriptures, but there is much evidence to the contrary to be found in them. We might call this the DNA evidence against him (Doctrine Not Accurate). It is an important part of the case against him. But it is by no means all the evidence there is against his supposed authority. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that he was not even a true apostle of Yeshua... let alone the greatest apostle who ever lived as he is so often eulogized.


There are a number of historical facts, including things that both Yeshua and Paul said as recorded in the Bible,that leave us with some very compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven.

There are several interesting facts surrounding this case that should be noted and kept in mind...........

Conclusion

The fact that Paul converted and became a Messianic believer in Yeshua proves nothing...........

We have seen that Paul has single handedly created a counterfeit Gentile religion. The doctrines of this false apostle Paul, have clearly given men license to ignore the Law of God thus preventing men from having their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. In this way, Paul has become one of Satan's most effective tools.

It is long overdue that Paul be called to task on what he has done. Those of us who love the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and Yeshua the Messiah must categorically reject the supposed authority of Paul and his doctrines as did the Ephesians whom Yeshua commended for doing so. If we truly love the God of Abraham, we will do as Abraham, and do as Yeshua commanded. God said He blessed Abraham;...............................................


.......................................................................

.

 

[farout]

What we forget is that Paul was writing letters to Christian communities in order to correct them, reprove them, or encourage them in their faith. His faith was completely from Jesus, with an understanding that his Jewish roots give him a point of view. I believe he spent some time in the desert after his Damascus Road experience, contemplating and digesting what Jesus taught him in those few days after he was knocked off his high horse. And piecing it all together into one organic body of faith. But lets be clear-all the apostles had some sort of 'Damascus Road Experience', though probably not as dramatic as Paul's. Peter's came between the time he denied Christ until Jesus asked three times 'Simon, do you love me?'. Of course, the instillation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Paul's personal journey in the desert was his 'Holy Spirit moment', I believe.

Now you are talking like a protestant!

 

[Root of Jesse]

Now you are talking like a protestant!

Horsefeathers...

 

[farout]

Horsefeathers...

Ok I could accept that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Now you are talking like a protestant!

Reminds me of the scene in this Muslim TV series:

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm usually right, except when I'm wrong.

Then you are a candidate for this "right or wrong" experiment.....

.

 

[Soyeong]

None of the apostles command us to observe Sabbath. If its so important i think they might have taught it many times, just as they do other commands which Christ gave us through them.

1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

In these verse keeping Christ's commands is associated with walking in the same way that he walked, and Jesus walked in obedience to the law. Jesus gave no indication that he was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should obey or that he was editing them, but rather he said just the opposite, that not the least part would disappear from the law until heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-19), which are either idioms for saying that it will never pass away or are refering to end times. Furthermore, Christ said that he only did the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so the law of Christ is the same as the law of the Spirit, which is the same as the law of the Father. Jesus gave a perfect example of how to obey the the for us to follow, which included keeping the Sabbath, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). In Acts 15:21, the Gentiles were expected to keep the Sabbath and in Colossians 2:16 Paul encouraged them to keep the Sabbath. Sin is is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), the law says to keep the Sabbath, and Gentiles are told not to sin, so Gentiles are not to break the law.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

.........................
Jesus gave a perfect example of how to obey the the for us to follow, which included keeping the Sabbath, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

In Acts 15:21, the Gentiles were expected to keep the Sabbath and in Colossians 2:16 Paul encouraged them to keep the Sabbath. Sin is is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), the law says to keep the Sabbath, and Gentiles are told not to sin, so Gentiles are not to break the law.

Uh oh.
Here we go with the Sabbath again. Messianics and SDAs favorite topic.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-not-honoring-the-sabbath-a-sin.7402803/
Is not honoring the sabbath a sin?



.

 

[Soyeong]

Exactly..... why would Jesus have said this:
Matthew 19:17-19New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Jesus himself was asked which commandments to keep and he purposely omitted the Sabbath Commandment.

Jesus also omitted the first four the the Ten Commands, so are you saying we are free to follow other gods, worship graven images, and take the Lord's name in vain? Jesus listed the commands that deal with man's relationship with man, which he was obeying, but what was lacking was the commands that deal with his relationship with God, which is why Jesus said to follow him.

 

[Soyeong]

Galatians 5:2
2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.

It's not always clear what your understanding is when you just list a verse. The law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and certainly not in order to become saved, so Paul was upholding the law by rejecting those who were wanting to require all Gentiles to do that. Saying that you don't need to obey God in order to become saved is very different from saying that you don't need to obey God because obedience to God was never given as a requirement in order to become saved in the first place.

 

[Extraneous]

1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

In these verse keeping Christ's commands is associated with walking in the same way that he walked, and Jesus walked in obedience to the law. Jesus gave no indication that he was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should obey or that he was editing them, but rather he said just the opposite, that not the least part would disappear from the law until heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplished (Matthew 5:17-19), which are either idioms for saying that it will never pass away or are refering to end times. Furthermore, Christ said that he only did the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so the law of Christ is the same as the law of the Spirit, which is the same as the law of the Father. Jesus gave a perfect example of how to obey the the for us to follow, which included keeping the Sabbath, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). In Acts 15:21, the Gentiles were expected to keep the Sabbath and in Colossians 2:16 Paul encouraged them to keep the Sabbath. Sin is is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), the law says to keep the Sabbath, and Gentiles are told not to sin, so Gentiles are not to break the law.

The letter kills. I see that now for the first time in my life. I don't care for religion any more. You guys can have that. You wont hear me say anything.

 

[Soyeong]

The letter kills. I see that now for the first time in my life. I don't care for religion any more. You guys can have that. You wont hear me say anything.

The letter vs. the spirit is talking about two different approaches to following the law, not about obeying God vs. not obeying God. Do you obey the law legalistically or do you obey the law with regard to its intent? When the law is not obeyed according to the Spirit, then it gets perverted into legalism, which kills, but that was not the way that it was intended to to be followed. However, when the law is obeying according to the Spirit, then it become a tree of life for those who take hold of her. God did not give the law to Moses and the Israelites to kill him, but so that they would have life abundantly.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The letter kills. I see that now for the first time in my life. I don't care for religion any more.
You guys can have that. You wont hear me say anything.

See what? The part about the letter killeth?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-letter-kills.7611484/
The letter kills.

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

KJV) Revelation 11:11
And after three days and an half, the Spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.



.

 

[Extraneous]

We reap what we sow.

 

[Extraneous]

See what? The part about the letter killeth?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-letter-kills.7611484/
The letter kills.

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

KJV) Revelation 11:11
And after three days and an half, the Spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet;
and great fear fell upon them which saw them.



.

Yes brother. Exactly.

 

[Extraneous]

The letter vs. the spirit is talking about two different approaches to following the law, not about obeying God vs. not obeying God. Do you obey the law legalistically or do you obey the law with regard to its intent? When the law is not obeyed according to the Spirit, then it gets perverted into legalism, which kills, but that was not the way that it was intended to to be followed. However, when the law is obeying according to the Spirit, then it become a tree of life for those who take hold of her. God did not give the law to Moses and the Israelites to kill him, but so that they would have life abundantly.

Religion kills too.

 

[Extraneous]

Religion divides people and quenches the spirit. I just cant go down that road anymore.

 

[Soyeong]

Religion divides people and quenches the spirit. I just cant go down that road anymore.

religion
[ri-lij-uh n]
noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Are you saying you no longer have this set of beliefs? Jesus came to bring true religion.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.