Why is God so hidden? Why must we seek Him to Find Him?

[com7fy8]

it has been a long and very aggravating day and I'm just very tired.

Thank you for your time. I feel for you; I know how it can be very painful, even, to be frustrated and subjected to nasty stuff while I am trying to be reasonable. How do we get rest?

So, about what you said about what

And it's not like I figure out how to be right,

You don't know that there's any merit to this methodology.

The merit is I am not depending on my own limited self >

but I do what He has me do . . . if and when I do . . . then discover how it is right,

And, with not depending on myself, I can have rest while dealing with negative and nasty things and impossible people.

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'" (Matthew 11:28-30)

The merit of this includes how God makes me able to not be under the power of negative and nasty people and their stuff. And I can pray for them, instead of criticizing and getting paranoid against them. But this has taken God's own correction, not a do-it-myself job.

So, back @Shempster > how we are at any time can effect what we are able to see and process and perceive and understand. For example, if I am into trying to judge and control others, I might tend to use the Bible to get things for controlling people and cloning people to all see things the way I do. But God is superior to me . . . to say the least > so it is good to pray and get His input

About trying to "clone" people religiously > ones can be oppressive, meaning they do not make the effort to personally get to know people, but they try to just lump them all into their one-size-fits-all set of things people say they believe and what they do > surface unity. This is how oppressors work . . . not caring about each individual person's interests, needs, problems, abilities, and faults. So, if you try to look for some set of beliefs as your main way of getting straight about God . . . this could get you tied up in a group who is into outward conforming. And we have seen how superficial religious people can even think a monster is qualified to be a pastor . . . because he or she can put on the show and say-so that they are looking for.

So, we need to more deeply be with God, Himself, so we discover what His words really mean.

If you were to tell an uncivilized eskimo what an elephant is, he might think you are talking about a walrus . . . big and fat, with tusks. This is how it can be with God > just reading the book does not tell us how He is. Explanation doesn't. Saying He is loving and kind might not tell you, if you have your own idea that you dictate loving and kind to mean. There are people who are their own dictators about what has to be true, how God must answer to them > this does not work.

You can see how some number of people have used ways of evaluating God, and their ways have not worked to bring them to God.

Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me," in John 14:6. So, God's way to Him is personal, not logic and evidence and dictating how God has to answer to us!! And we rest and enjoy

 

[SteveB28]

This is a really important point, IMO. In every other aspect of our lives, we use logic and evidence to determine the correct way forward. Doctors who go on faith aren't revolutionaries or visionaries, they're terrible doctors.

So when it comes to what may be the single most important part of our life, we're supposed to abandon these methods that are established to work incredibly well entirely, in favor of another method that you people can't even demonstrate is valid?

And we can perform a very simple observational survey to gauge the sincerity of the 'faith' of a theist.

Approach a series of theists and reveal to them that you have experienced a 'vision of God' and that he has a message for them - he wants you to tell them that he loves them dearly and that they should treat others around them with care and affection.

My wager is that you will be routinely met with choruses of "Bless you!", "God is good" and the like. You may even achieve a "Hallelujah!" or two.

Now try it with another group, but this time the message changes - god's message is to the effect that he wants them to sell up all of their worldly possessions and to donate the cash to the private homeless shelter that you are establishing soon.

'Belief without evidence'? I think it will be found wanting somewhat.

 

[The Cadet]

The merit is I am not depending on my own limited self >

How do you know? This is my problem here - you don't. And you've said as much yourself. You don't know that you're depending on more your own limited self. For all you know, this could just be your own subconscious. This is why I asked the question of "how do you know this is actually god speaking" in the first place. And it's not like I'm just baselessly asserting this, either; when studies were conducted on what this might mean, the results showed very convincingly that when people try to envision what they think their god thinks about an issue, the same part of their brain is active as when they think about what they think about an issue, rather than the part that is active when they think about what other people think about an issue.

To quote a great article on this:

Now look at the last brain image in the panel. This takes the brain activity of someone thinking of their own opinion, and subtracts that from the brain activity of that same person thinking of god’s opinions. And guess what? They are exactly the same.

‘What would jesus do?’ It turns out that what Jesus would do is exactly what ‘I’ would do – at least in so far as figuring out what Jesus’s opinions are. Thinking about God’s opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process.

This is a fascinating result. It suggests that people use God not to inform their own decision making, but to reinforce it.​

So again, I ask, how do you know that it's God speaking, and not just your own subconscious? How can you tell?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

There's an obvious and simple answer to this question but I don't think I'm allowed to say it.

 

[Shempster]

There's an obvious and simple answer to this question but I don't think I'm allowed to say it.

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Only I can't imagine what you are thinking exactly.
It seems to me that everything about this world is both extremely hidden and yet right under our noses the whole time.

 

[com7fy8]

results showed very convincingly that when people try to envision what they think their god thinks about an issue, the same part of their brain is active as when they think about what they think about an issue, rather than the part that is active when they think about what other people think about an issue.

So again, I ask, how do you know that it's God speaking, and not just your own subconscious? How can you tell?

Oh, I've been curious what brain images would show while I am experiencing being with God, versus how I can be while I am more into my own ego. I will offer you that how I function while in ego is very different than while I am submitting to God and sharing with Him in His love.

While my ego is thinking things, I am in a very different emotional state and function, which I am sure would show differently on imaging. While I am peaceful and caring for any and all people and enjoying God, I "offer" the imaging would show different functioning . . . even if it were in the same part of the brain . . . or else the imaging is still "limited" if it can't discern the difference.

But you have specified function during what we think. Still . . . if the people tested were into their own egos about what they believe about God, then their religion could be in truth egotistical; so this would explain why their thinking about everyday matters of ego would show the same imaging as their thinking in ego about God.

I'm not perfect, but I can sense the difference between when I'm thinking in ego versus in love. And I pray for God to make me more always in His love. And there are times when my religious thinking and communicating can be egotistical . . . maybe showing off or trying to get attention; when things work against this, I can get caught looking . . . getting negative and nasty reacting. This is part of how I can tell, not only if my beliefs are correct but if I am handling them in a loving way

Now I could argue, Cadet, that the imaging can only measure physical function. I think you know where I could go, here. But > > I do understand that even if I have a non-physical function included in how I process thinking, still my spiritual mental activity does effect my physical brain function.

So . . . I can't go by what shows in other people. I do not know them personally. And, even if I knew them, you could ask how can I be sure I really know them? And yes this is a question always needing consideration, since I can fool myself. And we have reports of how religious people have been able to fool themselves into thinking monsters were pastors. They could not tell the difference. But I think I know "why" > there are religious people who set up their own ego standards > superficial and for show and conforming to each other. Then any psychopath predator or con artist can put on the acting and talk show they are looking for.

@Shempster So . . . for me personally . . . part of making sure I don't fool myself is I try prayerfully not to evaluate people by their show and say-so. And compare them to the Bible and how the Bible says to be and relate, not only what to say and do. And see if they are balancing various things of the Bible, and are not only promoting certain items. Part of how you can tell if your beliefs are getting somewhere is if they are bringing you more into being personally submissive to God and discovering how to love any and all people.

I offer this helps, though I am not perfect.

And it helps for me to get wise to however I might be getting my own self to match the image I think I should be. God has done better with me, than I have tried

So, my only hope is God. I simply trust Him . . . but not only with ideas. So, you would need to keep an imaging thing going during my real life, for a twenty-four hour period . . . like those heart monitors can do . . . with me making notes, at times, about what I'm doing, how I am more in ego or in love, at any given time

 

[The Cadet]

Oh, I've been curious what brain images would show while I am experiencing being with God, versus how I can be while I am more into my own ego. I will offer you that how I function while in ego is very different than while I am submitting to God and sharing with Him in His love.

...But what of your subconscious? Your "ego" may say one thing at one time, but your mind is extremely multifaceted. Even I, without any apparent revelation from a deity, have a great variety of thoughts, feelings, and emotions. Sometimes I think of my own self-interest. Sometimes I'm completely possessed by thoughts of others. There's nothing abnormal about this, and nothing about this seems to point to a God. Do you think this couldn't happen if it was just you up there?

Now I could argue, Cadet, that the imaging can only measure physical function. I think you know where I could go, here. But > > I do understand that even if I have a non-physical function included in how I process thinking, still my spiritual mental activity does effect my physical brain function.

Yes, I understand this. It's entirely possible that there is a spiritual aspect beyond the physical. It's also entirely possible that headaches are caused by the headache fairy, and that when I take aspirin, what actually happens is that it appeases the headache fairy. Maybe someday it'll stop working altogether, because the headache fairy will want something other than aspirin. Does that sound ludicrous? When we have a perfectly workable naturalistic explanation for a phenomenon, there's simply no good reason to appeal to the spiritual or supernatural.

 

[com7fy8]

Sometimes I think of my own self-interest. Sometimes I'm completely possessed by thoughts of others. There's nothing abnormal about this, and nothing about this seems to point to a God. Do you think this couldn't happen if it was just you up there?

I do understand it is good to think of myself as well as others. And one thing which can help to expose what I am subconsciously doing is how I react in the moment when someone or something interferes with something I'm doing. My lady friend is a good "test" of if I am in ego or love, at any particular moment. If you could image me during our different interacting, it would be interesting to see how I screen-showed while being more pleasant and patient and caring and sharing, versus how I can react when I am trying to control her and she doesn't go along with me.

Yes, I understand this. It's entirely possible that there is a spiritual aspect beyond the physical. It's also entirely possible that headaches are caused by the headache fairy, and that when I take aspirin, what actually happens is that it appeases the headache fairy. Maybe someday it'll stop working altogether, because the headache fairy will want something other than aspirin. Does that sound ludicrous? When we have a perfectly workable naturalistic explanation for a phenomenon, there's simply no good reason to appeal to the spiritual or supernatural.

Yes, physical aspirin might stop physical pain. But the headache could have started with spiritual causes, of how I am not trusting and depending on God for peace, and then I am in weakness so things can get the better of me. Or . . . someone could hit me on the head with a hammer. Either way, the aspirin might help with the physical pain.

But it does not solve my ego problem which helps make me weak enough to give in to spiritual stress of not getting my way.

And this can feed into what Shempster is asking >

@Shempster If we are getting frustrated in our efforts to "figure out" what God's word says about different things . . . our confusion and frustration and other negative reacting can show we are trying in our own ego. We need to stop and be still and trust God and not try to hurry Him to answer to us.

 

[SteveB28]

I do understand it is good to think of myself as well as others. And one thing which can help to expose what I am subconsciously doing is how I react in the moment when someone or something interferes with something I'm doing. My lady friend is a good "test" of if I am in ego or love, at any particular moment. If you could image me during our different interacting, it would be interesting to see how I screen-showed while being more pleasant and patient and caring and sharing, versus how I can react when I am trying to control her and she doesn't go along with me.
Yes, physical aspirin might stop physical pain. But the headache could have started with spiritual causes, of how I am not trusting and depending on God for peace, and then I am in weakness so things can get the better of me. Or . . . someone could hit me on the head with a hammer. Either way, the aspirin might help with the physical pain.

But it does not solve my ego problem which helps make me weak enough to give in to spiritual stress of not getting my way.

And this can feed into what Shempster is asking >

@Shempster If we are getting frustrated in our efforts to "figure out" what God's word says about different things . . . our confusion and frustration and other negative reacting can show we are trying in our own ego. We need to stop and be still and trust God and not try to hurry Him to answer to us.

There is no evidence that any of your thought processes occur outside of the functioning of your brain. None.

In fact, there is very good evidence to show that all of your thinking occurs totally within brain function. We can observe what happens when people have various parts of their brain damaged or removed.

You are making baseless claims when you speak of 'spiritual' thought processes. They don't exist.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Wlel I dont think hes scared of us, thats for sure.

 

[com7fy8]

There is no evidence that any of your thought processes occur outside of the functioning of your brain. None.

Well, in order to get evidence, a scientist would need to be able to measure what is not physical.

We can observe what happens when people have various parts of their brain damaged or removed.

We are getting rather thoroughly off topic from Shempster's inquest. You can start a thread wherever you are free to share, and let me know where you start the thread, and we can keep it open for any topic.

 

[The Cadet]

Well, in order to get evidence, a scientist would need to be able to measure what is not physical.

But if you can measure what is not physical, a scientist can use that same method to make the measurements independently and determine that there's more than just what's going on in your head there.
If you can't measure it, then how are you determining that it's there in the first place?

This is the awkward dilemma of the supernatural - either it's beyond the reach of science, in which case it's undetectable and thus you cannot provide any justification to anyone, including yourself, as to why you should believe in it, or it isn't, in which case science should be able to test and measure it, making it distinctly non-supernatural.

 

[SteveB28]

But if you can measure what is not physical, a scientist can use that same method to make the measurements independently and determine that there's more than just what's going on in your head there.
If you can't measure it, then how are you determining that it's there in the first place?

This is the awkward dilemma of the supernatural - either it's beyond the reach of science, in which case it's undetectable and thus you cannot provide any justification to anyone, including yourself, as to why you should believe in it, or it isn't, in which case science should be able to test and measure it, making it distinctly non-supernatural.

Exactly.

 

[Colter]

There is no evidence that any of your thought processes occur outside of the functioning of your brain. None.

In fact, there is very good evidence to show that all of your thinking occurs totally within brain function. We can observe what happens when people have various parts of their brain damaged or removed.

You are making baseless claims when you speak of 'spiritual' thought processes. They don't exist.

To say spirit doesn't exist is a baseless claim. Consciousness trancends the material it rests on.

 

[Colter]

But if you can measure what is not physical, a scientist can use that same method to make the measurements independently and determine that there's more than just what's going on in your head there.
If you can't measure it, then how are you determining that it's there in the first place?

This is the awkward dilemma of the supernatural - either it's beyond the reach of science, in which case it's undetectable and thus you cannot provide any justification to anyone, including yourself, as to why you should believe in it, or it isn't, in which case science should be able to test and measure it, making it distinctly non-supernatural.

Just because science can't measure something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Science can't weigh love in a balance.

 

[Rick Otto]

The way I know Him now is nothing like I "knew" God when I was younger. But I would never have known Him like I do now if it were not for the years of 1. Praying 2.studying scriptures 3. taking notes about my experiences and comparing them to the bible and modern science...I could go on and on. What I am wondering is that if I had not done all of that over the last 20 years I might have no clue who He is or even if He even exists in the first place.

So why is it that God hides himself so cleverly? So much so that honestly nobody can really PROVE any doctrine because there is always a verse to debunk the theory.

Thoughts?

He hooked up with me I say 'personaly' (thru his creation) when I was 4, before religion could get to me.
It worked along the lines of psalm 19:

1] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
[2] Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
[3] There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
[4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
[5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
[6] His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
[7] The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
[8] The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
[9] The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
[10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
[11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
[12] Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
[13] Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
[14] Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

 

[Extraneous]

There is no evidence that any of your thought processes occur outside of the functioning of your brain. None.

In fact, there is very good evidence to show that all of your thinking occurs totally within brain function. We can observe what happens when people have various parts of their brain damaged or removed.

You are making baseless claims when you speak of 'spiritual' thought processes. They don't exist.

With respect sir, there is no evidence to suggest that spiritual forces do not exist. None whatsoever. We cannot declare that spiritual thought processes do not exist because we cannot prove it. Think about it, outside forces can interfere with our thinking process, the only question is whether they are spiritual forces or natural forces.

 

[The Cadet]

Just because science can't measure something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

No, but it does mean we have no empirical method of detecting it. It means we have nothing to offer in terms of "reasons we should believe in X". This is the key problem.

 

[The Cadet]

With respect sir, there is no evidence to suggest that spiritual forces do not exist.

Your fallacy is: "shifting the burden of proof". If you make the positive claim (in this case: "Spiritual forces exist"), it's up to you to both define what the term means and establish its truth value.

 

[Extraneous]

Your fallacy is: "shifting the burden of proof". If you make the positive claim (in this case: "Spiritual forces exist"), it's up to you to both define what the term means and establish its truth value.

No my friend, that's actually your fallacy. You declare that you are correct and that its up to us to prove you wrong. What makes you right however? What test can you show that proves outside forces cannot possibly interfere with our thought processes?