Failed Prophecy of the Church

[Jane_the_Bane]

Hello! I'll disagree with that, with the caveat that we're discussing Judaism as it existed 2,000 years ago, when Christianity began.

There was no monolithic religion to be identified as THE Judaism, 2,000 years ago. Yes, Christianity started out as a sect within the wider realm of Judaism, but its rise to prominence (and its development towards the theological identity we know today) started only after the ascendancy of gentile Christianity with its mystery religion elements. There's even a good chance that the last remnants of the original Jewish Christians were later reviled as the first heretics, called "Ebionites".

Regarding Islam, I think Islamic respect for Judaism and Christianity is often overstated. Muslims don't accept the Jewish or Christian scriptures as they're written, considering them corrupted. Contrast that with Christians, who accept the entire Jewish Bible as inspired.

Anti-Judaism has a millennia-spanning history in Christian tradition, and its scriptures are only accepted if seen through the lens of retroactive continuity, i.e. with the "New Testament" pretty much informing the way the "Old" is to be read and understood.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

They thought he was a pretender. He claimed to be YHWH multiple times such as at his trial, and in John 8. But they knew him as Jesus of Nazareth, who grew up as a kid in Galilee and was the son of a carpenter. So he was either YHWH as he claimed, or a blasphemer. They finally voted for blasphemer.


Some prophecies are yet to be fulfilled. But Gentiles of all nations have been coming to the Jews to learn for 2,000 years: the NT was written by Jews (with the possible exception of Luke).


As I said above, I believe he was convicted of blasphemy because they didn't believe he was who he claimed to be.

Stoning is/was the punishment for blasphemy not crucifixion.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

But in all of Jewish history there had never been what Christians now call the Incarnation. That is, the appearances of YHWH in the Hebrew scriptures had never included being born from a human woman and growing up through childhood as Jesus did.

But the Greek history and traditions sure did.

 

[LoAmmi]

That the belief existed and was both widespread and considered orthodox has been confirmed by Segal and Boyarin.

I don't think it's been confirmed at all. I've looked over the arguments I can actually get at and it's not confirmed at all that the other side that argued that there was no two powers was absent from Jewish thought. It's pure speculation that it was the dominate idea.

Now, it's pure speculation that you're going to go with because it helps your guy. I feel no need to do it though.

 

[LoAmmi]

Stoning is/was the punishment for blasphemy not crucifixion.

Well, remember they try to skirt around that by saying the Romans actually cared if Jewish leaders killed other Jews. Sometimes, I guess.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Well, remember they try to skirt around that by saying the Romans actually cared if Jewish leaders killed other Jews. Sometimes, I guess.

I keep forgetting we controlled the Roman Empire/world back then too.

 

[ChetSinger]

I don't think it's been confirmed at all. I've looked over the arguments I can actually get at and it's not confirmed at all that the other side that argued that there was no two powers was absent from Jewish thought. It's pure speculation that it was the dominate idea.

Now, it's pure speculation that you're going to go with because it helps your guy. I feel no need to do it though.

I don't believe I ever said it was dominant, because I've never read that myself. The words I've read included "widespread" and "considered orthodox".

 

[ChetSinger]

Stoning is/was the punishment for blasphemy not crucifixion.

Yes. But I've read that Roman governments often took a dim view of capital punishment by street justice. Convincing Pilate to do the deed would've been a good plan.

 

[LoAmmi]

I don't believe I ever said it was dominant, because I've never read that myself. The words I've read included "widespread" and "considered orthodox".

Nothing has shown that it was "considered orthodox". It's speculated but I'm going to go with my own speculation that there were opposing groups to that idea and that they would have considered it to be blasphemous.

I have no idea why people want to believe that Judaism just up and changed everything BECAUSE of Christianity when we didn't change everything because of it. Why didn't the rabbis just abandon the idea of the Messiah if we were so scared of Christianity? I think Christians want Christianity to be this huge, ominous thing hanging over Judaism and I think that's a flight of fancy.

 

[ChetSinger]

But the Greek history and traditions sure did.

Even in Jewish history, such as Genesis 6.

 

[ChetSinger]

Nothing has shown that it was "considered orthodox". It's speculated but I'm going to go with my own speculation that there were opposing groups to that idea and that they would have considered it to be blasphemous.

As I said once before, the idea itself was pre-Christian. Segal traced it as far back as the 2nd century BCE. But afaik there are no pre-Christian rabbinical condemnations of it. Should any be found, I'll alter my opinion.

I have no idea why people want to believe that Judaism just up and changed everything BECAUSE of Christianity when we didn't change everything because of it.

These findings are data-driven, afaik. Segal and Boyarin was/are rabbinical scholars.

 

[LoAmmi]

As I said once before, the idea itself was pre-Christian. Segal traced it as far back as the 2nd century BCE. But afaik there are no pre-Christian rabbinical condemnations of it. Should any be found, I'll alter my opinion.

The Talmud was compiled after Christianity came about. We don't have many writings from before that because it was an oral tradition. Even then, we only wrote it down because we had to. We didn't want Gentiles having our teachings. I keep trying to find out how he traced it back that far and I keep coming up blank. Unless he's reading the later writings and projecting it back.

 

[juvenissun]

More like ABC given the Trinity.

But how do you think this is different from the Baha'i Faith in relationship to Islam?

Baha'is are rather firm in our insistence on the Oneness of God although Sunni Muslims consider our belief in Manifestations to be shirk.

I don't know Baha'i much, neither on Islam. But I know Baha'i does not agree with the violent nature of Islam. That is a very very significant difference. There is no Baha'i terrorist.

 

[juvenissun]

I know that's how Christians like to perceive themselves, but their utter disregard for Mosaic law, their trinitarian theology and their concept of God becoming Man to sacrifice himself to himself (or pay the ransom to Satan, according to some interpretations) is UTTERLY ALIEN to Judaism. It's not an extension of Judaism, it's a completely different animal, and only uses older scriptures through the lens of retroactive continuity.

The closest analogue I can think of is the Latter Day Saints, who see themselves as an "extension" of Christianity while in fact establishing a wholly different theological foundation through their own scriptures.

Christianity respects Mosaic Laws to the last single word.
The crucifixion of Jesus is to fulfill the OT expectation on the Messiah. Jews today have NO HOPE to get the real Messiah according to their laws.

 

[juvenissun]

More like ABC given the Trinity.

But how do you think this is different from the Baha'i Faith in relationship to Islam?

Baha'is are rather firm in our insistence on the Oneness of God although Sunni Muslims consider our belief in Manifestations to be shirk.

They are not a counts. They are logic symbols.

 

[mmksparbud]

I know that's how Christians like to perceive themselves, but their utter disregard for Mosaic law, their trinitarian theology and their concept of God becoming Man to sacrifice himself to himself (or pay the ransom to Satan, according to some interpretations) is UTTERLY ALIEN to Judaism. It's not an extension of Judaism, it's a completely different animal, and only uses older scriptures through the lens of retroactive continuity.

The closest analogue I can think of is the Latter Day Saints, who see themselves as an "extension" of Christianity while in fact establishing a wholly different theological foundation through their own scriptures.

The extension from Judaism is this----Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah from the OT. He was the sacrificial lamb of the Levitical priesthood. He was the fulfillment of the OT. It is the OT only that the very first Christians used to verify who He was. The OT was the bible of all the first /Christians, the rest were letters until they were put together. Jesus, as the sacrificial lamb, is why the Levitical priesthood was no longer necessary because He was the offering that all the priesthood had pointed to. That was the difference between Christian and Jew--the priesthood was no longer needed, the Levitical laws were done away with because Jesus became that offering--the ultimate, one and only needed Atonement.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

If you are a God can you die? If you cannot die, is it truly a sacrifice?

 

[mmksparbud]

If you are a God can you die? If you cannot die, is it truly a sacrifice?

Jesus, became human----His humanity died, His divinity did not--that is the mystery of God in human form.

 

[Arthra]

Yes Jesus was human and He sacrificed Himself ... His martyrdom . The Spirit of God that manifested in Jesus could not be killed or crucified.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Yes Jesus was human and He sacrificed Himself ... His martyrdom . The Spirit of God that manifested in Jesus could not be killed or crucified.

Do the Baha’i believe Jesus rose from the dead?